Making it In New York

BlakeJustBlake · #1 05-29-2010, 03:41 AM

I'm not interested in moving to new york to improve my music career or anything, because at this point that would honestly be silly.

I'm really just rather curious about what it's like getting gigs and working in New York. I've heard a lot of different things like how even when you get gigs they pay extremely poorly because there are thousands of musicians out there who would be happy to take that gig. I've heard that the musicians are treated rather poorly. There's also the stuff about how hard it is to actually make it there, but a lot of great musicians you always hear about working around their area and then deciding they need to move to New York and then they made it in some way there, like Avishai Cohen who moved there with pretty much nothing and worked his way up to playing with people like Chick Corea. How do people generally do that? Just by having a reputation for being really good? Or by having a reputation for being reliable and good?

I guess a lot of things that apply in New York could apply in a lot of areas, but it just seems like New York is one of the meccas of musical talent.

What are some other big areas where lots of musical talent crowds.

Rick Nicak · #2 05-29-2010, 08:18 AM

There are a few cities that have the "musical talent density" like New York. Nashville, LA, Austin. I know nothing about Chicago's musical scene. I think Memphis is phenomenal.
Making it in New York can be done, just need to get out there and play as much as possible. If you have a good night out, you can turn that one gig into 3 or 4 more, or make a great contact that can help you down the road. You could be the next "Great Bass Player" and remain unknown until you get out and play.

BlakeJustBlake · #3 05-29-2010, 05:16 PM

I've heard a lot about Austin as being renowned as a pretty big music city, are session musicians very much in demand?

dlargent · #4 05-29-2010, 05:28 PM

Making it in New York is easy, just follow these few simple rules:

1. Always show up to gigs early, dressed nicely.

2. Go out to shows whenever you can. Almost everyone will let you sit in on bass; get everyones phone number from that band.

3. If you hear any song being played that you don't know, learn it immediately. Also, if you want to sit in with a band, it will help you TREMENDOUSLY to go to their website or myspace page and learn all of their songs by heart beforehand. Then they will definitely call you if their bass player can't make it, which happens all the time.

4. Learn how to read music like a super pro. Practice ridiculously tough reading on a daily basis. This will definitely get you into very lucrative studio work if combined with rules 1-3!!

Good luck, and have fun!!

St Drogo · #5 05-29-2010, 05:30 PM

Maybe I just don't understand economics, but can't this situation be resolved relatively easily? It seems a matter of supply and demand at first glance; what with there being "thousands of musicians" (hyperbole?) wanting to do shows, but a limited supply of venues they could do that at, resulting in people paying and treating musicians bad. You know, "I can get twenty others if you don't take my **** and the little money I give you" kinda thing. But isn't music a valued commodity in itself? I mean, Wouldn't it be possible, maybe with some financial backing from the city, to have a dedicated stage where every night there's like ten to fifteen bands doing a set? Surely some initiative like that would lighten the hardships of musicians, as well as fullfill the needs of people who want to go see some bands. It could be like a movie theater, in that it's somewhere you go to kill a few hours. I know I'd rather see a band than that crap hollywood's been putting out.

Of course, I've never been to New York, so maybe this won't work. Or it already exists but isn't the fix I thought it might be.

xxfaux_punkxx · #6 05-29-2010, 06:16 PM

who needs a venue when there's a street corner in a big city.

kamakiriad7 · #7 05-29-2010, 07:31 PM

As a big fish in a small pond, and 25 years old, I'm planning to relocate to Toronto, Montreal, NYC, New Orleans, or a similar location a year from now. I've always wondered people's perspectives on this issue.

I have bookmarked this thread and look forward to the responses coming!

BluesWalker · #8 05-29-2010, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlakeJustBlake

I've heard a lot about Austin as being renowned as a pretty big music city, are session musicians very much in demand?

I have heard that Austin is overflowing with quality musicians making it very difficult to get decent paying gigs (if they pay at all). Ed Friedland might be able to give you more insight about Austin.

pasta4lnch · #9 05-29-2010, 07:55 PM

though I've lived in NY my whole life, for the most part, so I can't compare any other scenes - there are a billion people trying to do the same thing here. but at the same time there are circles that seem to pop up just about everywhere. there are plenty of gigs to be had. there is more of everything here. more gigs, more good bands, more bad bands, more a$$holes, more cats etc

I once heard some big rap producer say "you cant be hot unless you're near the fire" - NY's def a big fire!

That being said I've had it w/ NY. I'm leaving the music biz and the wife and I are heading elsewhere to start our family . . . ymmv

BlakeJustBlake · #10 05-30-2010, 02:02 AM

Are there a lot of good players in these large areas trying for the same jobs? Or are there a lot of bad players trying to get them too?

Where I'm at right now there are a lot of musicians who are good, but they all seem pretty inclusive. Is there a way to get in with these guys even if you're not really there yet as far as being as good as them musically, but just being able to hang out with them and soak it up and improve with the people who are already good at it.

pasta4lnch · #11 05-30-2010, 07:07 AM

find the hot spots. go hang and mingle, it'll soon become apparent who the cats are. . .

seriously - the fact that I HATE mingling and networking is THE only reason my career has stalled. I know plenty of guys that are good at bs'ing that are higher up on the food chain than me who suck!

Musiclogic · #12 05-30-2010, 07:30 AM

Food chain is the key to understanding playing and surviving NYC. It's cliques and the trendiest advance. Gigs that pay are tough, but gigs that pay well are to be had ocassionally. The most talented do not always get the gig, but the best networked can. If you think you are an "Artist" who needs to express their musical palette, can it and go back to mommy's basement. If you have a real desire to compete, fight, stab your best friend and mother in the heart to win, are able to do any look required from gay artist to bald biker to hmmm emo dude, AND can actually play your instrument adeptly for any style asked, you have a chance at getting gigs after you leave your day job as a stock boy at D'agastinos. Thin skin and emotion only work in the city AFTER you have made a real name for yourself, and people call You. Posers and Artistes need not apply.

pasta4lnch · #13 05-30-2010, 07:35 AM

^^ well put - I especially like the stab you friend and mother in the back . . . needless to say my back has many scars!

Scottgun · #14 05-30-2010, 07:55 AM

It seems to me that it depends on what you are trying to do. If you are trying simply to make a living playing music, then any decent sized city will do. If you are trying to be famous, then yeah, gotta go where the action is, compete with lots of people looking for the same thing, offer something somebody wants that they can't really get elsewhere and hope the lightning strikes.

Quote:

3. If you hear any song being played that you don't know, learn it immediately. Also, if you want to sit in with a band, it will help you TREMENDOUSLY to go to their website or myspace page and learn all of their songs by heart beforehand. Then they will definitely call you if their bass player can't make it, which happens all the time.

+1 Bands that aren't under a contract to stay together tend to revolve membership like a turnstile, and being able to slide into a gig seamlessly is an asset.

Joe Nerve · #15 05-30-2010, 08:39 AM

Sorry but I disagree with the stabbing people in the back stuff. That's the quickest way to put an end to your gigs here in the city. Those people may initially get some gigs, but all the lowlives I've known had their music careers end rather quickly. Word gets around and people know who the scumbags are.

It's quite the opposite in fact. The poeple who I know who get the most gigs are the nicest guys. Including guys I know who went to the very top. I was friends with James Lomenzo before White Lion or any of his success and trust me, he didn't get as far as he did by stabbing anyone in the back. He is an awesome dude (as well as player), but I think his personality got him a lot further than his talent. I know lots of people who can play like him.

I get a fair amount of gigs - it's a rare weekend that I'm not playing. I think there's a lot that goes into being succesful here, but the following is at the top of the list:

Being super super prepared. Showing up to the audition or first meeting knowing the material as if you'll be perfroming it at MSG. I learn songs till I can play them flawlessly on my own without the recordings.

Being a really easy going, friendly, and AGREEABLE guy.

Not only being on time, but communicating well, and quickly. Guys who take 2 days to return calls, emails and texts often get passed up.

As much as I hate to say it, looking the part helps a lot too. I consider being in the best shape I can be a big part of my career. If I were a fat guy I think I'd probably only land half the gigs I do. And anyone can can do it. I wasn't in shape at all 10 years ago. And if I were a fat guy in a hawaiian shirt I'd probably get none of the gigs I do.

In short: If you look good, sound good, are a nice dependable guy and communicate well - you'll get lots of gigs.

pasta4lnch · #16 05-30-2010, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Nerve

Sorry but I disagree with the stabbing people in the back stuff. That's the quickest way to put an end to your gigs here in the city. Those people may initially get some gigs, but all the lowlives I've known had their music careers end rather quickly. Word gets around and people know who the scumbags are.

I whole heartedly agree - w/ both! As I said before, there is just a lot of everything here - more good people and a lot more jerks. I've been fortunate to have a lot of good people around me here - and those close to me are the nicest people in the world . . . that's not to say I haven't come across some real idiots too.

I've had my fair share of knives in the back - I'm a nice guy, but I also am not big on confrontation, so I appear like a pushover. some think they can walk on me. To me, if you screw me once that's it - I still run in the same circle or even work w/ the person again (hey, a gig's a gig!) but I'll never trust, or rely on them again . . . cant get mad at shlt for stinking - that is it's job!

You are right, though, that the top top has a lot less BS. It just seems that every time I stray from those I know and trust it's more often a headache than not ...

as always ymmv

Joe Nerve · #17 05-30-2010, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pasta4lnch

I've had my fair share of knives in the back - I'm a nice guy, but I also am not big on confrontation, so I appear like a pushover. some think they can walk on me. To me, if you screw me once that's it - I still run in the same circle or even work w/ the person again (hey, a gig's a gig!) but I'll never trust, or rely on them again . . . cant get mad at shlt for stinking - that is it's job!

2 days ago I did battle with exactly that. There was a gig a few months back where the guy promised me $120 (for a gig I really didn't want to do), and then gave me $90. I didn't get into it with him. I let him now he was screwing me, and he knew I was mad. But I wasn't going to get into a bunch of crap over $30. Just decided I wasn't going to work with this guy anymore.

Fast forward - he asked me to do a gig next weekend. I wanted to, but initially thought screw him. Changed my mind after realizing I'd rather play than sit home doing nothing that night and I took the gig. He called me right after with a bunch more.

Sometimes it's worth eating a little crow. IMO anyhow. Not my style, but I'm still learning. I guess I should add that the people who eat crow the best seem to also get the most gigs. I think it all evens out in the long run too.

edfriedland · #18 05-30-2010, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluesWalker

I have heard that Austin is overflowing with quality musicians making it very difficult to get decent paying gigs (if they pay at all). Ed Friedland might be able to give you more insight about Austin.

That sums it up nicely! There are guys that make some money gigging and doing sessions here, but most folks go out of town to make "real money". Or, like me, they have other sources of income and gig to supplement. I don't approach gigging as a job anymore. I like to get paid, but I prefer to enjoy myself even more, so if the two factors don't coincide on the same gig... I go for the fun. I've played too many gigs I didn't like for the money, and unless you're offering REAL $$$ (and let's face it, no one is), I won't do that.

No matter what town you're talking about - if you have your musical skills together, can cover a lot of ground, have a "go get it" attitude and are not a jerk, you'll get gigs.

BlakeJustBlake · #19 05-30-2010, 11:23 PM

What skills would you guys say are absolutely needed to be considered good as far as getting gigs are concerned? I don't really know because I've never been asked to play a gig and the only shows I've ever played are in garages surrounded by drunk college students, so here's what I imagine when I think of what I'd need to be getting steady gig jobs:

Good sight reading skills
Good ear
Good Technique
Skill in a lot of different idioms
So for Jazz:
-Being able to play decent walking lines
-Being able to play a solo without it ruining the whole train of the song and flopping
Latin:
-Know the rhythms and such
Rock:
-Have a sizable repertoire of songs or the ability to survive without knowing the specific bass parts
Country:
-Simple enough, roots and 5ths and leading tones every once in awhile, can't go too crazy or it just won't sound too good

Again, that's at least what I think about it, can anyone confirm any of this for me or revise my guess? And just because I say that I think that's what's needed, it doesn't mean I necessarily have those skills.