Pay to play, revisted...

[kesslari]

No, I don't mean the "sell tickets and we'll make a profit and give you a tiny bit" scam.

But...
Do a regular, "$50-60 per band member gig".
Pay the babysitter.
Pay for the wife's drinks - she's come out to listen and dance, and it's great to have her there digging the music.
Have a meal at the club/restaurant.

And *poof* you're in the red...

[jgsbass]

If you like what you do, thats what it costs.

[modulusman]

Get to the point where you get paid decent money or leave the wife at home.

[Renaissance]

Modulusman, you must be single.

[Rick Auricchio]

Eliminate the wife's drinks.

[modulusman]

Originally Posted by Renaissance

Modulusman, you must be single.

Yep.

[kesslari]

Ah, but there are benefits to the wife having a good time

Heck, I'm definitely not complaining. If I needed to do this for the money, I'd do it differently (and did, way back). I no longer have to assess gigs based on their income generation, or have to play them to maximize that. Now I get to play the musics I love, regardless of the commercial market, and my mortgage is not dependent on drunk people and club owners. That's a big benefit for me. (YMMV - and full respect to those who play for a living. Been there, and for myself, this way works better.)

Just struck me as funny. You can net more as a babysitter than as a musician

<minor rant on>
Actually, I must say that I am confounded by the fact (most noticeable because I took 15 years away from playing) that the pay for most bar gigs ($50-60 per person) is the SAME as it was in the 1980's. HOW CAN THAT BE? What other profession has had no income growth in 30 years, while cost of living has tripled?

[GlennW]

Originally Posted by kesslari

What other profession has had no income growth in 30 years, while cost of living has tripled?

Crackho

[Stinsok]

I try to make enough to support the habit.

[bassybill]

Originally Posted by kesslari

Ah, but there are benefits to the wife having a good time

And there are even more benefits to somebody else's wife having a good time.

[Time Consumer]

My girl just turned 21 so Im just getting a taste of this, but she usually doesnt force me to pay for everything, knowing we dont make much, and 50-60 is a good paying gig for us, considering most of the time we play for 3 or $400 flat fee, 5 if we're lucky, we have two places that pay us 600, so yeah, gig money is tight. But we do pay in other ways, our singers wife doesn't want us to play at a certain place cuz of reasons I wont go into but it happens to be the one place that pays us $650 a gig, really sux.

[alembicguy]

You need a better paying gig then.

[bassybill]

Originally Posted by Time Consumer

But we do pay in other ways, our singers wife doesn't want us to play at a certain place cuz of reasons I wont go into but it happens to be the one place that pays us $650 a gig, really sux.

Wait a minute - your singer's wife is telling you where you can or cannot play? What the hell is that all about?

[Time Consumer]

Originally Posted by bassybill

Wait a minute - your singer's wife is telling you where you can or cannot play? What the hell is that all about?

Thats what I've been sayin cuz she's messin with all ou money now, but my singer shouldn't have been messin with one of the bartenders at this particular establishment, its a good learning experience for me tho since im 22 and my bandmates are all a good 10 years older than me. I think we can get her to lighten up, he's tryin to be a good boy now.

[bassybill]

Originally Posted by Time Consumer

Thats what I've been sayin cuz she's messin with all ou money now, but my singer shouldn't have been messin with one of the bartenders at this particular establishment, its a good learning experience for me tho since im 22 and my bandmates are all a good 10 years older than me. I think we can get her to lighten up, he's tryin to be a good boy now.

Understood.

[Time Consumer]

Originally Posted by bassybill

Understood.

Lol

[SMASH]

You ain't begun to do the math. Gear, strings, gas, parking, jam rooms, lessons/school, advertising, clothes ... and if you dare to factor the biggest cost - time - then you have to be a principal writer for a charting long-running multiplatinum act to come out ahead of most lawyers or accountants.

That ain't to say people should only spend time and money on whatever maximizes a monetary return, even if they dislike the job or hobby, but it is to show what a crock of #### all those 'don't pay to play' or 'don't play for free' threads are in a logical or mathematical sense.

Why has the pay not gone up for local acts?
Increasing competition. More venues, more bands, DJ's, more theatres, video games, more channels, video recorders, video rentals. Maybe a few people are even doing something more positive with their time.

For popular touring bands the earnings and income streams have increased exponentially.

Originally Posted by kesslari

No, I don't mean the "sell tickets and we'll make a profit and give you a tiny bit" scam.

But...
Do a regular, "$50-60 per band member gig".
Pay the babysitter.
Pay for the wife's drinks - she's come out to listen and dance, and it's great to have her there digging the music.
Have a meal at the club/restaurant.

And *poof* you're in the red...

[Time Consumer]

Originally Posted by SMASH

You ain't begun to do the math. Gear, strings, gas, parking, jam rooms, lessons/school, advertising, clothes ... and if you dare to factor the biggest cost - time - then you have to be a principal writer for a charting long-running multiplatinum act to come out ahead of most lawyers or accountants.

That ain't to say people should only spend time and money on whatever maximizes a monetary return, even if they dislike the job or hobby, but it is to show what a crock of #### all those 'don't pay to play' or 'don't play for free' threads are in a logical or mathematical sense.

Why has the pay not gone up for local acts?
Increasing competition. More venues, more bands, DJ's, more theatres, video games, more channels, video recorders, video rentals. Maybe a few people are even doing something more positive with their time.

For popular touring bands the earnings and income streams have increased exponentially.

I'd agree with you on everything but the dont pay to play or play for free being a crock of $hi!, even tho we may not always end up in the black, sometimes we do and its glorious, I dont consider stuff like strings and all that being in the red either, I think of it more as a hobby that pays for itself, which is better than you can say for a ton of hobbies out there. But when bands mess up other bands ability to make money, it just becomes another money pit hobby. I've been with a money making band about 10 months now, and the only times we've played for free were at benefit/fundraisers and opening for the lovehammers at the double door and house of blues in chicago one weekend, actual exposure playin in front of 1000 people, not playin some empty venue for free and calling it exposure.

[Jim Campbell]

Originally Posted by kesslari

Ah, but there are benefits to the wife having a good time

Heck, I'm definitely not complaining. If I needed to do this for the money, I'd do it differently (and did, way back). I no longer have to assess gigs based on their income generation, or have to play them to maximize that. Now I get to play the musics I love, regardless of the commercial market, and my mortgage is not dependent on drunk people and club owners. That's a big benefit for me. (YMMV - and full respect to those who play for a living. Been there, and for myself, this way works better.)

Just struck me as funny. You can net more as a babysitter than as a musician

<minor rant on>
Actually, I must say that I am confounded by the fact (most noticeable because I took 15 years away from playing) that the pay for most bar gigs ($50-60 per person) is the SAME as it was in the 1980's. HOW CAN THAT BE? What other profession has had no income growth in 30 years, while cost of living has tripled?

if you think of it as a fun night out for the wife,and fun (playing)for you with the cost offset by the sixty bux....yeah,but to call it a profession,earning a living from it would be essential

[SMASH]

If you don't count 'strings and all that' and you think your hobby is paying for itself, then I repesctfully suggest you'd benefit from math & logic lessons. Even a doctor is not making a profit until the student loans and earning value of the years spent studying and working for free are paid off, with interest.

As for how much people play for, it's really up to them and none of anyone else's business. Someone playing for free in an empty dive no more affects my earning capacity as a musician than it affects Nickelback's earning capacity when I play for an $8 cover a block away from their $80 per ticket arena gig.

Housewives and bar sluts have never put whores out of business. MLB players should not fear going broke due to Little League or Cops vs. Friefighters beer league games. If anything, the 'free' games are exactly what shows why the pros are worth what they're worth. Go get some free financial or legal advice, or consider a free heart transplant by an amteur, and soon you'll be lining up to pay a pro.

Agree or not, the important thing here is to understand that the problems some players imagine are caused them by guys playing for cheap/free is a very different topic than the math/logic issue which the OP and I cited, which reveals that even those complaining about cheap/free players are effectively paying a lot to play.
The numbers don't lie, if they're calculated honestly.

Originally Posted by Time Consumer

I'd agree with you on everything but the dont pay to play or play for free being a crock of $hi!, even tho we may not always end up in the black, sometimes we do and its glorious, I dont consider stuff like strings and all that being in the red either, I think of it more as a hobby that pays for itself, which is better than you can say for a ton of hobbies out there. But when bands mess up other bands ability to make money, it just becomes another money pit hobby. I've been with a money making band about 10 months now, and the only times we've played for free were at benefit/fundraisers and opening for the lovehammers at the double door and house of blues in chicago one weekend, actual exposure playin in front of 1000 people, not playin some empty venue for free and calling it exposure.