Sound guy walked on stage and turned me down...

Tbirdbassist · #1 11-29-2008, 05:36 PM

I play in a power trio with a hard hitting drummer, we are generally a loud band (but not obnoxiously loud).

Anyway, I was using the clubs backline, a scratchy potted GK Backline 600 with an Ampeg 8x10. First off, my tone is pretty much ANTI GK (see my sig for my bands myspace). I am not a fan of GK so that was my first problem, having to EQ and try and get a tone similar to what my normal one is. The EQ on my amp (Peavey TNT's) stays mostly flat and I boost the low and upper mids a tad. Well flat on the GK was no where near flat on the Peavey... it was mud.

Trying not to take too much time being a tone snob I went out on the floor myself and checked volumes as the soundguy (who was first off very rude about how much time we had to play while the band who played before us pulled an encore...) said I should turn down because the levels get in this place get weird.

So I obliged and turned down a bit. However once we got to plying the first song I quickly realized that I was not audible at all and even after a couple mid song EQ adjustments there was no definition to my tone and none of my band mates could hear me very well and since we work off each other it came down to my guitarist watching my hand at some points.

So we move into the second song and I turn up and adjust accordingly and guess what? We sound a lot better, I still that it was trash because I couldn't get the right sound out of the GK, but I was at least audible.

We go through another song and then I change basses for our last song (our songs are lengthy so we get 4/5 songs a set usually). As I'm strapping on my Jazz bass, I see the sound guy walking up, hopping on stage, walking right past me to the amp and turning the volume down. He then goes back to the board without mentioning a word to me!

How f****** rude is that? Really? Needless to say, I turned back up when we began the last song. We also "extended" our songs ending as we still had a lot of time left.

[/rant]

It was honestly an all around mediocre gig for us soundwise. The guitar was having feedback problems with his amp and the according to a lot of people in the crowd the drums weren't mixed very well in the PA.

Thanks Mr. Soundman!

Herrlster · #2 11-29-2008, 05:48 PM

Maybe there's a big difference from being on the stage and being on the floor? He probably had a good reason for it. You thought you sounded "decent" when you had the volume boosted, he didn't. He's hearing what the crowd is hearing, you're not.

newbold · #3 11-29-2008, 05:49 PM

Sounds like it was a small place. Sound waves propagate and define themselves many feet away. You probably didn't know how to EQ that rig and probably sounded like crap because of it.

It's not rude he was doing his job.

Were YOU going through the PA?

You should have been, and should have turned the rig to only hit the band.

You'll know for next time.

#4 11-29-2008, 05:51 PM

What a jerk. He could have given you a hand signal.

coolrunner989 · #5 11-29-2008, 05:54 PM

If its a small place and the backline is a 8x10, I'd be skeptical of going through the PA. why have such a big stage monitor if you're not going to use it?
I'd agree too, he shouldve at least asked/explained. Some people distrust soundmen and some are too trusting, and it's hard to know without talking to them and seeing what kind of experience they have.
My experience with soundmen has been pretty positive - I talk to them while setting up, let them know my intent tone/volume-wise and see how they handle it.

brucebruce · #6 11-29-2008, 05:55 PM

ALWAYS use your own sound guy... no matter what the cost!

Tbirdbassist · #7 11-29-2008, 06:04 PM

I said in the post that I went out to the floor and listened myself. He suggested it. I did and it sounded fine, this was pre volume lowering.

And it was a smallish place dancefloor/bar on the side. 150 people on the floor would be breaking a firecode I'm sure.

I thought I going through the PA (I did plug into a DI box), but I wouldn't have known because the onstage monitors weren't operational.

We didn't get any complaints for the other bands, they said we sounded good so I guess that's a plus. But there's a problem when you can't hear yourself. And I think I did the best job I could trying to EQ the GK, time allowing It would have been another story. My first mistake really was not bringing my own rig.

And I disagree about him not being rude. I think at least it would have been a bit more professional for him to tell me that levels still aren't working out or something like that. Then perhaps a better solution could have come up, like me actually being put through the PA.

I NEVER have problems with soundmen and this was my first bad experience with one (second bad experience with a GK backline though...).

We plan on playing the place again, so next time we'll definitely be having a talk so that things go right.

Mr_Sore_Fingerz · #8 11-29-2008, 06:24 PM

If you cranked up the BL600 (with an ampeg 8x10's, its likely you did) then yeah it will start getting pretty muddy, but if you keep the EQ flat, the boost at 12 o'clock and the master volume around 12-3 o'clock it's got a pretty sweet sound if the bass you're using is anywhere close to decent (I use my Squier VM's and Ibanez SR500 through it and some GK Goldline speakers)....but that aside...

A good alternative might be a preamp, which I'm looking into this holiday season as well. you can use it for your own D.I. and have the settings you like saved, tell the sound guy to run a clean signal out which most decent sound guys will do. However, I do think that's out of line and unprofessional of him to just walk up there and change it instead of going up and talking to you. You notated that you guys had extra time on your hands as well, so he obviously didn't need to hurry.

Having your own sound guy is a great idea actually, as most smaller clubs won't really care if you have your own sound guy.

KeithPas · #9 11-29-2008, 06:40 PM

Have the sound-tech put you in your floor monitor.

Craig_S · #10 11-29-2008, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhan

What a jerk. He could have given you a hand signal.

He had tried that already.

I have a friend with one of those SWR Red Head 2-10 combos. At one of his gigs, he kept turning up his rig and complaining he couldn't hear it. Well, his sound, out in the room, was punching everyone in the face and he was destroying the mix. That night, I played rude sound guy and turned his amp down for him. Guess what... The people started dancing and smiling.

Moral? Let the sound man do his job.

Dave Muscato · #11 11-29-2008, 06:47 PM

I generally let the sound guy do his job. If he thinks I'm too loud out front, who am I to disagree? If I can't hear myself, or my band can't hear me... that's what monitors are for... no sense in getting mad at the soundguy about it.

I wouldn't consider this rude at all; in fact I'd thank him later for not interrupting me about it. My job is to play the bass; the soundguy's job is to run sound, which includes setting levels.

hbarcat · #12 11-29-2008, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tbirdbassist

The guitar was having feedback problems with his amp and the according to a lot of people in the crowd the drums weren't mixed very well in the PA.

Interesting.

This is exactly the sort of thing that results when the on-stage bass is too loud and it overpowers the rest of the instruments in the house PA.

I play bass and I also run sound. I know that the biggest nightmare for the sound guy is the bass player with a big rig that's turned up too loud on stage and has a lot of tone EQ'd into it that interferes with the other instruments. There are only two options open to the sound guy:

1) Aggressively EQ the other instruments to try to cut through the muddy bass and then boost their volumes to the verge of feedback.

2) Signal bass player to turn down. If he refuses, go up on stage and turn him down yourself.

I can imagine the sound guy for this gig is over at the TalkPA forum right now ranting about the clueless bass player who was playing way too loud and ruined the sound for his band.

WillBuckingham · #13 11-29-2008, 06:53 PM

GK's are pretty standard for backline bass rigs. I would figure out how to get a sound you can deal with out of them.

Audiophage · #14 11-29-2008, 07:04 PM

To be fair, this was they places rig, most likely he didn't want you blowing their speaker.

Matt Till · #15 11-29-2008, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hbarcat

Interesting.

This is exactly the sort of thing that results when the on-stage bass is too loud and it overpowers the rest of the instruments in the house PA.

I play bass and I also run sound. I know that the biggest nightmare for the sound guy is the bass player with a big rig that's turned up too loud on stage and has a lot of tone EQ'd into it that interferes with the other instruments. There are only two options open to the sound guy:

1) Aggressively EQ the other instruments to try to cut through the muddy bass and then boost their volumes to the verge of feedback.

2) Signal bass player to turn down. If he refuses, go up on stage and turn him down yourself.

I can imagine the sound guy for this gig is over at the TalkPA forum right now ranting about the clueless bass player who was playing way too loud and ruined the sound for his band.

Regardless, if the band can't hear him, the sound guy wasn't doing his job right.

onlyclave · #16 11-29-2008, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Till

Regardless, if the band can't hear him, the sound guy wasn't doing his job right.

Then the rest of the band was playing too loud, too.

Turn down people. Blistering stage volume never got a good result.

Tbirdbassist · #17 11-29-2008, 08:13 PM

I got no signal to turn down again after I had first turned things back up. He had all the time in the world to come up and talk to me since we did play 3 songs before he decided that he needed to come on stage and be hands-on without speaking to me about it first.

I most certainly wasn't overpowering the rest of the band. If the drummers ear is right next to an 8x10 and all he's getting is low rumble, I think there's a problem. I think a lot of it had to deal with me not being able to get a good sound out of the GK in the time that we had. I'm sure if I had, idunno, 5/10 minutes to noodle and get things right it would have worked out better. I'm not very familair with Gk and am just not a fan of the "hi-fi" tone.

I'm no sound engineer, but I'm also no idiot and have gigged enough (same goes for the drummer and guitarist) to know how things should be, we all knew that on stage it sounded crap.

There was a signal coming from my pedalboard going to the PA, I am however confused as to why it wasn't used if my sound out of the 8x10 was "overpowering". If I was him id of quickly realized that and spoken to me and said "we should run you through the house". Which I would have happily agreed to. I'm sure any good soundguy would and should suggest that if the backline sound isn't cutting it.

Hey hbarcat, nice of you calling me clueless, btw.

But like I mentioned, according to the other bands and people in the crowd we "sounded great" so we didn't make a bad impression on the people who hadn't heard us before (mostly everyone, we got booked last minute), which is what matters to us more. It's justbothering when things don't sound right on stage.

hbarcat · #18 11-29-2008, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tbirdbassist

Hey hbarcat, nice of you calling me clueless, btw.

Read it again, I did not call you clueless. I was clearly speculating from the perspective of what a hypothetical sound guy might be thinking.

And you know it's true. The sound guy who turned you down is very likely telling a bunch of people this same story, but in his version you are in the wrong and he's probably also describing you in some less than flattering terms. Just like you did to him. I have no interest in judging who is right and who is wrong (if anyone even is wrong). I just thought it would be helpful for someone to provide a prospective from the point of view of the typical sound tech working a small club who has to deal with this sort of "Cobble it together then hurry up and make everything sound good right now!" situation all the time.

Herrlster · #19 11-29-2008, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tbirdbassist

I'm no sound engineer, but I'm also no idiot and have gigged enough (same goes for the drummer and guitarist) to know how things should be, we all knew that on stage it sounded crap.

Sounds like the band's fault to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tbirdbassist

But like I mentioned, according to the other bands and people in the crowd we "sounded great"

Sounds like the sound guy did a good job then.

Incognitus · #20 11-29-2008, 11:49 PM

I side with the soundman on this one. I have been in his shoes many times, almost weekly it seems. The guitarist in the band that I manage/sound engineer for complains more than I would like that he's not loud enough in the FOH mix. Never mind that everyone can hear him and more often then not I HAVE to turn him down otherwise he overpowers everything. Sound changes alot in just a few feet so imagine how different it sounds to the guy standing in the back trying to manage it all when everyone keeps changing everything.

The short and sweet of it is, if you can't or won't trust the sound guy provided, get your own.