Why? Just Why?

[Greg Johnsen]

Why must guitarists think that they alone are the most important people in the band? I was jammin with a few guys for fun one day, and they tried turning me down a few times (I turned myself back up cause I couldn't hear myself, and it was obvious that the volume had been turned from 8-5), so I asked them why they turned me down. The "Bassists should be seen, not heard" guitarist said that he was getting a headache, and that the bass was overpowering everything (ha...), and the cooler, much less of a dou*he guitarist said that it was hard to hear himself over the drums and myself (score 1 for rhytm section).

Anyways, why do guitarists have to be the loudest in the band? I've always believed in the jazz band method of doing things, but this obviously hasn't caught on...

What can I do to get them to understand that there's something called balance, that too much on the top sounds horrible, and that the bass should always be heard through the mix, not just a background thing that has no purpose?

Thanks,

Greg

[ntimkovich]

i feel your pain, man. i think most musicians only care about how they sound, hearing themselves, etc etc. it takes a set of really good muso's to understand that it's the MIX that's important, not the individual. you can be the greatest guitarist in the world, but if nobody can hear the rhythm section, you're gonna come off sounding like crap.

get used to this, by the way. it doesn't go away until you start playing gigs where there is a zoned monitoring system (so everyone can hear their own instrument, and the FOH mix can be independently controlled).

ah, the life of a musician....

[rancidrancid]

Because he's a fool.
I didn't deal with that when my band was looking for a rhythm guitar player. The way me, my guitar player, and my drummer are, is that we've been friends for years, all starting around the same time and growing by pushing each other musically, and we've refined our volumes so that the drums are there, the bass is layed barely over with a cutting tone, and the guitar is accompaning everything.
So we get a try out for this kid, and he's ok, not good, not great, but ok, and he walks over mid song and turns ME down.
Not cool, so i pushed him off of it, and I said, "You don't touch my gear, we're the band, you're not, we have me this high for a reason." Off he was.
We tried out a friend of ours, he fits in great, he was not very good, but just from playing with us for 3 months he's immensely improved.

[spudmaster34]

people touching my amp dosn't bug me as much as people touching my bass. Especially when I am playing it. If you think I am out of tune, tell me, I'll fix it, don't touch my headstock. If you think my tone is weirded up somehow, say something to me, you probably don't understand what the knobs on my bass do anyway.

[Greg Johnsen]

Ah, see, people know not to touch my bass, cause my fist my slip into their face...by accident of course.

I'll just try to explain it next time though, but I'm not gonna be jammin' with the ignorant guitarist anymore, not worth it, and he thinks he's so much better than everyone else (is this also a guitarist trait? lol)

Greg

[MichaelScott]

Originally Posted by Teh Fleaz0rz

Why must guitarists think that they alone are the most important people in the band?

The singer is actually the most important person in the band.

What can I do to get them to understand that there's something called balance, that too much on the top sounds horrible, and that the bass should always be heard through the mix, not just a background thing that has no purpose?

I ran into your problem when I first started playing with my first band back in the day. I believe it was caused by a few things:
1) I was playing with two guitar players. In that enviorment there is normally so much "Noise" that the bass really can screw things up if the tone/intonation/composition of the song is off. You'll have to make sure that your parts aren't too busy and that you aren't stepping on their toes. When we first started they wanted me to turn down up to the point where I could hardly hear myself. I found that after a few months of playing together I was able to turn my volume up and we got a nice sound together. I also missed a few weeks of practice and they couldn't hold the songs down with out my low end. So you might want to try that.
2) I really didn't know what I was doing when I first started playing. I knew music theory from playing woodwinds in college/highschool but I didn't really know how to play the bass. Some private lessons really helped my tone, sound, and feel.
3) Guitar players do have an ego complex. If the guys in your band are actually saying "Bass is ment to be seen not heard" then you should probably reply "Well, I wanna play, so looks like I'll just go find another band or play in my room." Bass players have TONS of leverage in a band- just because it is so hard to find a replacement.

So to summarize here are some possible solutions:
1) You might need to become a better player so that you sound good and they don't want to turn you down. Take some lessons if you think you need it.
2) If you are a good player, you might just want to miss practice a few weeks and see how they like it without a bass player.
3) You might just need a few months of jaming with these guys before you all get your sound together. So you might want to hold out- but no more then a few months.
4) You could always leave and find another band. It won't be hard. Trust me.
5) If you look for another band- get one with only one guitar player. My first band (with the two guitarists) changed into a one guitarist band when one of them got accepted to a PHD Program. With one less guitar around I had so much more room to play! I could really bust out some complicated/fun stuff without making the music too mushy.

[blackbassist]

haha
in my band i know the most about setting up and sound checking and stuff. so i make sure they're loud, but not too loud

[BassManPatsFan]

The guitarist in my band is just about the antichrist of the stereotypical guitarist it seems, for which I am quite lucky. He is NOT a gear snob, almost never requests a solo in a song, and the best part--last week we had a gig and he apologized afterward because he thought he was too loud and drowned me out (yes, he was loud, but it wasn't terrible). He is also one of my best friends, which helps I presume.
That said, if anyone ever tried to touch my bass or my amp while I was playing, I would not be a happy camper.
-Alex

[derrico1]

Originally Posted by MichaelScott

So to summarize here are some possible solutions. . .

Not sure if the following are at play in *your* case, but FWIW other common fixes include. . .

• Repositioning amplifiers (I've seen a lot of volume wars caused by set-ups in which the amps are all pointed at the players' knees. Of course your guitarist can't hear himself and wonders why you can't hear your raging SVT. . .) Funny how quickly the guitarists turn down when their amps actually project sound toward their ears. This also fixes guitarists who play w/ too much treble because all they've ever heard is the side of their cabinets. Of course, this cuts both ways: I remember being shocked at discovering how LOUD I was when I first started to play farther away from my stage cabinets.

• Adjusting guitar eq. In most rock mixes, I generally like to put a high pass (low cut) filter on the guitar submix set anywhere between 150-350 Hz. This gives the bass and kick room to operate, and in a band context the trimmed lows help focus electric and acoustic guitar.

• [Heresy alert on!] Here's a tip I've never seen discussed; but once I stumbled across it made my life on four strings much easier. It's counterintuitive, but I find that a high pass filter is also often useful on rock bass. You can free some room in the mix for kick, let your amp use its power more effectively, and keep the low whomp while dumping the mud. Try setting the high pass b/w 30-60 Hz for starters.

• All-time best fix, though, even when your gear is cave-man primitive, is to let the arrangement be your friend. If instruments are stepping on one another, chances are the arrangement could stand some rethinking. As bands play together for a while, this problem generally sorts itself out and the ad hoc local accommodations each player makes to the others become part of the band's style. Of course, that's only the case if you're playing with decent musicians--you know, the kind who listen to the band's sound.

[WDfusion]

Luckily, my band love bass. Haha

But If I am told to turn down... I just turn up.

[mellofello]

when people learn to play guitar they spend a great deal of time playing along with recordings, or playing with their amps cranked. It is tough to get them to understand being in the mix. It would be cool if we could get two recordings from a studio guy, one with the guitar in the mix and one with it too loud. Maybe they would listen and understand. It is frustrating cuz as a bassist or drummer we try very hard to play in a way that makes the song (and their solo) sound and feel good. funny thing is most of the time I listen to songs on the radio the singer is like as loud as the rest of the band put together, then I go see some garage band trying to play a gig and they think it's ok if the guitar is louder than the singer. what up ??

[Pruitt]

Personally, I'd tell the guitarists to stop scooping their mids, cut back on the bass in his EQ an try listening to everybody for a change, instead of just themselves. They're playing in an ensemble situation, not in the bedroom by themselves. Guitarists like that drive me nuts!

[MazeMouse]

Originally Posted by derrico1

Not sure if the following are at play in *your* case, but FWIW other common fixes include. . .

• Repositioning amplifiers (I've seen a lot of volume wars caused by set-ups in which the amps are all pointed at the players' knees. Of course your guitarist can't hear himself and wonders why you can't hear your raging SVT. . .) Funny how quickly the guitarists turn down when their amps actually project sound toward their ears. This also fixes guitarists who play w/ too much treble because all they've ever heard is the side of their cabinets. Of course, this cuts both ways: I remember being shocked at discovering how LOUD I was when I first started to play further away from my stage cabinets.

• Adjusting guitar eq. In most rock mixes, I generally like to put a high pass (low cut) filter on the guitar submix set anywhere between 150-350 Hz. This gives the bass and kick room to operate, and in a band context the trimmed lows help focus electric and acoustic guitar.

• [Heresy alert on!] Here's a tip I've never seen discussed; but once I stumbled across it made my life on four strings much easier. It's counterintuitive, but I find that a high pass filter is also often useful on rock bass. You can free some room in the mix for kick, let your amp use its power more effectively, and keep the low whomp while dumping the mud. Try setting the high pass b/w 30-60 Hz for starters.

• All-time best fix, though, even when your gear is cave-man primitive, is to let the arrangement be your friend. If instruments are stepping on one another, chances are the arrangement could stand some rethinking. As bands play together for a while, this problem generally sorts itself out and the ad hoc local accommodations each player makes to the others become part of the band's style. Of course, that's only the case if you're playing with decent musicians--you know, the kind who listen to the band's sound.

Amen on the repositioning thing. We've had that problem at our last rehearsal where one of the guitarists was WAY over volume and didn't find that out untill I told him to come stand next to me.
We switched places and prestochango problem solved

The other thing in rehearsal to watch out for is "boom" (as I like to call it)
It only applies to a 2 guitarists situation and only with distortion on. The song starts fine but as soon as the chorus with the disto/OD part starts everything becomes boomy and muddy.
Simple solution: Tell both guitarists to turn down their gain/OD settings. Still distorted but not boomy

[Introvox]

Whenever I open Jam (usually rock & jazz), what I play, changes the mood of everyone else playing.... I kick into a funky groove, everyone else, bumps it up, If I change to melodic whole and half notes etc., everyone mellows out.

Who's important now?

Read the book "How the Fender Bass Changed the World"

You'll be proud as heck to be a Bassist....when R&R was created, people said they love that it had a pulse, and went bomp/bomp/bomp/bomp, where do you think that came from....AND, guess what?, the gtr players were still doing the same thing they were the week before!

(For Some) Guitar can come with a disease.
There is no known cure.

[db4usa]

I feel your pain. My last band was and is totally ignorant about FOH and stage sound. I battled with them for a year and finally had enough. They set the PA EQ's using a CD player for house sound. (They didn't even have EQ's until I provided them with a unit.) Turned off my sub feed because their bedroom amps were aimed at their knees and thought I was too loud. The final straw was when I found my amp settings messed with and was told my sound/tone sucked. Meanwhile, the bass out front was nonexistant. Needless to say, I moved on after which they hired the equivelant to a tuba player for bass. Sure hope he enjoys playing and not being heard. Ha! A mime bass.
db

[Ravens]

Just have to share this...

I started playing with some new guys, mainly simple "in your face rocknroll/hardrock", real easy stuff.

So we are jammin a song and the lead vocalist and guitarist stops singing in the middle of the verse, looks over at me and says: "Turn the bass UP" !!!?!!??!!??
I had no trouble hearing my own playing, so i look over at him, making a face like "are you kidding"
He goes again: "sounds good, turn it up"

Damn near made me cry!

[Roland777]

Another "guitarists are evil and bassists are all misunderstood geniouses"-thread?

Egoism is an individual trait, not related to which instrument you play, but rather what kind of personality you have. I've seen egoistic drummers, egoistic vocalists and egoistic bassists as well - point still stands; if you're so thickheaded as not to realise what sounds good in context and what does not, it doesn't matter what you're playing, because you're selfish. You could be playing the triangle for all that matters - your personality would reflect upon your playing there too.

That being said, I realised just how important the mix is when I was playing my guitar along to a couple of metal songs. When all you hear of your own rig is fizz - re-equalize.

[Ravens]

But one could say that perhaps you are drawn to an instrument that you you feel fits your personality.

[Roland777]

Originally Posted by Ravens

But one could say that perhaps you are drawn to an instrument that you you feel fits your personality.

Moot point. Egoism occurs everywhere. Just because most complains that pop up concern selfish guitarists, doesn't mean that every guitarist is self-centered - what about all of you who play in a band and DON'T complain? Me, I've yet to encounter a selfish guitarist in a band-setting who doesn't back off when he knows it's crunch-time.

[MazeMouse]

And again I seem blessed with willing-musicians instead of ego-guitarists in my current project (People who know when something is wrong. Step one achieved. Now to teach them how to solve it :P)