The 13th Amendment - Let's talk about it

[Phil Smith]

Section 1.
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Section 2.
Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Obviously slavery is constitutional as indicated by the language above. This language used in this amendment reflects the beliefs, attitudes and climate present in the USA at that time.

What are your thoughts about this? Can we as a country be against slave labor in other countries when our constitution allows it?

[Relic]

man, this can be a great thread Phil but alas, I think it'll be closed in short order

This goes right with the last thread about illegal immigration. While I want to say "yes", as it's in punishment for a crime, it would also depend on the penal system. One "for profit" is insanity IMO.
Now, overseas? We all know how easily that can be abused overseas re: political prisoners and such. So in conclusion...

I dont want to touch this one wit' a 10' pole!

[Phil Smith]

Originally Posted by Relic

man, this can be a great thread Phil but alas, I think it'll be closed in short order

This goes right with the last thread about illegal immigration. While I want to say "yes", as it's in punishment for a crime, it would also depend on the penal system. One "for profit" is insanity IMO.
Now, overseas? We all know how easily that can be abused overseas re: political prisoners and such. So in conclusion...

I dont want to touch this one wit' a 10' pole!

The whole idea behind slavery is profit, don't you think? The least you can pay someone to do someone, the more profit you make.

[Relic]

Originally Posted by Phil Smith

The whole idea behind slavery is profit, don't you think? The least you can pay someone to do someone, the more profit you make.

Yes, I do agree. The profit "for whom" is a tricky part for me.
But to be honest, "slavery", even the word is touchy. I wouldn't feel much pity for a convicted murderer helping to build a road - someone may get a few $ but society benefits (theoretically) but a political prisoner in a third world country making my shirt? I don't like that at all.

[Waterpilot]

Originally Posted by Relic

But to be honest, "slavery", even the word is touchy. I wouldn't feel much pity for a convicted murderer helping to build a road - someone may get a few $ but society benefits (theoretically) but a political prisoner in a third world country making my shirt? I don't like that at all.

As far as I know, which is little, the work in prison (where they make cents on the hour) is actually considered a privilege that many look forward too.

[Papa Dangerous]

Hmm.. very interesting. Well, that is America for ya. We make people our beotches.

[Relic]

Originally Posted by Waterpilot

As far as I know, which is little, the work in prison (where they make cents on the hour) is actually considered a privilege that many look forward too.

Well, I may be wrong, but I understand that it can vary, where one prisoner may have to work, another may agree to work, one may get paid a nominal sum, another may get time shaved off a sentence etc.
What I'm talking about is a situation where someone would be theoretically forced into doing something sans pay because of their prisoner status- building a road etc I'm not even sure if that exists or not in teh US, but given what Phil posted, it looks like it can under the constitution?

[Phil Smith]

Originally Posted by Relic

Yes, I do agree. The profit "for whom" is a tricky part for me.
But to be honest, "slavery", even the word is touchy. I wouldn't feel much pity for a convicted murderer helping to build a road - someone may get a few $ but society benefits (theoretically) but a political prisoner in a third world country making my shirt? I don't like that at all.

So you think that the prisoners in "3rd world countries" are primary of a political nature? If so, what did you read to bring you to that conclusion?

The US has the highest incarceration rate i.e. #1 and China is #117.

List of countries by incarceration rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Southpaw5]

The language used when writing the constitution was the language of the day. The literal transalation of "slavery is constitutional" is similar to a lesser extent, to literal translation of the bible. We need to recognize the language used in relation of it's meaning at the time it was written.

I think there is a big distinction between "criminal punishment" and slave labor. Inmates are not slaves, but the in language of the constitution, this allowed for them to be required to work, free of charge to pay off their debt to society. AFAIK slave labor overseas is not usually done in this fashion, if I'm wrong here, please correct me.


I do not condone slave labor, but I have no problem with putting inmates to work on something constructive rather than learn new ways to break the law.

Thanks

-Dave

[Valiant Bandit]

Originally Posted by Southpaw5

The language used when writing the constitution was the language of the day. The literal transalation of "slavery is constitutional" is similar to a lesser extent, to literal translation of the bible. We need to recognize the language used in relation of it's meaning at the time it was written.

I think there is a big distinction between "criminal punishment" and slave labor. Inmates are not slaves, but the in language of the constitution, this allowed for them to be required to work, free of charge to pay off their debt to society. AFAIK slave labor overseas is not usually done in this fashion, if I'm wrong here, please correct me.


I do not condone slave labor, but I have no problem with putting inmates to work on something constructive rather than learn new ways to break the law.

Thanks

-Dave

+1000. Great post.

[Waterpilot]

Originally Posted by Relic

Well, I may be wrong, but I understand that it can vary, where one prisoner may have to work, another may agree to work, one may get paid a nominal sum, another may get time shaved off a sentence etc.
What I'm talking about is a situation where someone would be theoretically forced into doing something sans pay because of their prisoner status- building a road etc I'm not even sure if that exists or not in teh US, but given what Phil posted, it looks like it can under the constitution?

Similar to what SouthPaw has said... It sounds as if there is an allowance for slavery as punishment per the language. My guess it's to ensure there isn't a constitutional "out" for inmates as far as labor goes. I don't think tax payers would want to pay inmates minimum wage to make license plates for example. I haven't thought this through really so I very well could be missing the bigger picture.

[Relic]

Originally Posted by Phil Smith

So you think that the prisoners in "3rd world countries" are primary of a political nature? If so, what did you read to bring you to that conclusion?

The US has the highest incarceration rate i.e. #1 and China is #117.

List of countries by incarceration rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I wasn't talking about numbers, I was talking about reasons for being held prisoner in countries that may provide services or cheap goods to us.

geez Phil what do you have against me anyway?

[Pacman]

Did you not get the hint from the last one of these I closed??