6 Year Old Suspended

[JansenW]

It’s a Fork, It’s a Spoon, It’s a ... Weapon? (NYTIMES) http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/12/ed...e.html?_r=1&bl


Zachary Christie with the Cub Scout utensil that got him suspended from school who now faces 45 days in the district’s reform school.

NOT FAIR... Seems like a nice kid... but the knife does look larger than I would have guessed. What to do?

- I'm a former Boy Scout

[DaveDeVille]

sad .
the school should have just confiscated the Cub Scout utensil , and called the parents ...
to suspend a 6 year old for 45 days is just stupid .
imo.

[Dr. Cheese]

That article from the New York Times made a point that needs to noticed. Many school districts have turned to no tolerance policies because whenever discretion is allowed, there are documentable instances of minority students being punished at higher rates.

I know someone will probably bring up the clip of Terrion Albert being murdered in Chicago to justify being harder on minority students, but it is important to note that the discrepancy happens to minority kids attending the same schools as suburban white kids, not just minority kids in really tough neighborhoods. I feel for the little boy who was suspended, but until administrations learn to be consistent, kids like Zachary Christie may end up catching it worse than they deserve.

[fishtx]

Originally Posted by david meissner

sad .
the school should have just confiscated the Cub Scout utensil , and called the parents ...
to suspend a 6 year old for 45 days is just stupid .
imo.

+1

[Pilgrim]

The very idea behind no tolerance policies is IDIOTIC.

All these policies do is give administrators a chance to act like robots and become stupid. if I were an admin, I'd tell the kid to put it in his locker and take it home - or I'd have taken it and given it to his parents. I'd have told the teachers to leave the kid alone, shut up and do their work.

People keep trying to reduce human behavior to simple plus/minus, yes/no issues, and it doesn't work. Never has worked, and never will. Zero-tolerance ANYTHING does not work; it usually only takes a few weeks before the first example arises which shows them to be stupid and non-functional.

"Spurred in part by the Columbine and Virginia Tech shootings, many school districts around the country adopted zero-tolerance policies on the possession of weapons on school grounds. More recently, there has been growing debate over whether the policies have gone too far."

There should be no debate. This has gone MUCH, MUCH too far!!!

[lbanks]

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

The very idea behind no tolerance policies is IDIOTIC.

All these policies do is give administrators a chance to act like robots and become stupid. if I were an admin, I'd tell the kid to put it in his locker and take it home - or I'd have taken it and given it to his parents. I'd have told the teachers to leave the kid alone, shut up and do their work.

People keep trying to reduce human behavior to simple plus/minus, yes/no issues, and it doesn't work. Never has worked, and never will. Zero-tolerance ANYTHING does not work; it usually only takes a few weeks before the first example arises which shows them to be stupid and non-functional.

"Spurred in part by the Columbine and Virginia Tech shootings, many school districts around the country adopted zero-tolerance policies on the possession of weapons on school grounds. More recently, there has been growing debate over whether the policies have gone too far."

There should be no debate. This has gone MUCH, MUCH too far!!!

What! No tolerance for "No Tolerance'?!? This shouldn't be tolerated!!

[Dr. Cheese]

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

The very idea behind no tolerance policies is IDIOTIC.

All these policies do is give administrators a chance to act like robots and become stupid. if I were an admin, I'd tell the kid to put it in his locker and take it home - or I'd have taken it and given it to his parents. I'd have told the teachers to leave the kid alone, shut up and do their work.

People keep trying to reduce human behavior to simple plus/minus, yes/no issues, and it doesn't work. Never has worked, and never will. Zero-tolerance ANYTHING does not work; it usually only takes a few weeks before the first example arises which shows them to be stupid and non-functional.

"Spurred in part by the Columbine and Virginia Tech shootings, many school districts around the country adopted zero-tolerance policies on the possession of weapons on school grounds. More recently, there has been growing debate over whether the policies have gone too far."

There should be no debate. This has gone MUCH, MUCH too far!!!

The problem is that if you give this kid a break, and then expel another kid in a district with a zero tolerance policy, you may be out of a job or open to a law suit or both.

The other factor here is that the same level of sypmathy is not out there for kids who do not look like Opie or Beaver Cleaver. If Deandre Johnson takes Mom's butter knife for his peanut butter and crackers, is he going to get the same sympathy?

[Jared Lash]

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

The very idea behind no tolerance policies is IDIOTIC.

All these policies do is give administrators a chance to act like robots and become stupid. if I were an admin, I'd tell the kid to put it in his locker and take it home - or I'd have taken it and given it to his parents. I'd have told the teachers to leave the kid alone, shut up and do their work.

When I was subbing I worked at several schools with No Tolerance policies and was explicitly told that I was not allowed to substitute my own judgment in any case but had to abide by the letter of the law in all cases. My instinct would have been to take the thing away, explain that he couldn't bring it to school again and call the parents to pick it up. But when using common sense could lead to a dismissal, that's going to happen a lot less than it should.

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

"Spurred in part by the Columbine and Virginia Tech shootings, many school districts around the country adopted zero-tolerance policies on the possession of weapons on school grounds. More recently, there has been growing debate over whether the policies have gone too far."

You're right of course. No tolerance policies never work and ridiculous examples like this always come along to prove it. But the sad truth is that giving teachers/administrators leeway in how they dole out punishment very often doesn't work either. Dr. Cheese points out racial bias but the fact is that you also end up in situations where kids get too much (or too little) punishment based solely on the person in charge's perception of that student.

The school I taught at gave the administration flexibility in how offending students were dealt with and I felt like that often led to unfair punishments because people had an axe to grind about the way a kid dressed or whether or not he/she was attentive in class rather than the offending act itself.

One last note. As noted, that is a larger knife than I expected. If the mother didn't tell her son when she first saw it that he couldn't take it to school then she deserves some blame here. Ridiculous policy or not, as the parent she should understand the rules and do her best to make sure her son abides by them.

Originally Posted by lbanks

What! No tolerance for "No Tolerance'?!? This shouldn't be tolerated!!

Well played.

[MatticusMania]

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

The problem is that if you give this kid a break, and then expel another kid in a district with a zero tolerance policy, you may be out of a job or open to a law suit or both.

The other factor here is that the same level of sypmathy is not out there for kids who do not look like Opie or Beaver Cleaver. If Deandre Johnson takes Mom's butter knife for his peanut butter and crackers, is he going to get the same sympathy?

He should. The kid only wanted some peanut butter on his crackers but instead ends up with 45 days in reform school? Just as, Im assuming, little Zach just wanted to use his boy scout tool to eat his lunch.

Because it's too hard for some school officials to decide where the line should be drawn it means that all kids should suffer the same fate? Sure, kids should not be taking knives to school, but its not difficult to see the harmless intention in the childs doing so. Confiscate the knife, inform the parents, and punish properly if the child does it again.

[MatticusMania]

Originally Posted by Jared Lash

One last note. As noted, that is a larger knife than I expected. If the mother didn't tell her son when she first saw it that he couldn't take it to school then she deserves some blame here. Ridiculous policy or not, as the parent she should understand the rules and do her best to make sure her son abides by them.

While I agree with this, it should be taken into consideration that a young boy could be quite good bringing such a tool to school without his parents even noticing.

"What?! Zach to what to schoo?! I hadnt the slightest..."

[Fontaine]

holy crap. That's all I can really say about this one.

[bass player 48]

Originally Posted by JansenW

- I'm a former Boy Scout

I'm also a former scout, my son is a boy scout, and for a few years - I was my son's cub scout leader.

Nowhere in scouting does anybody think it's okay to give a knife to a 6 year old and turn them loose. Scouts have to go through knife safety training before they are allowed to use or carry a pocket knife. I think they call it the "widdling chip" and you have to earn that before you can use / carry a knife.

So - Just because a parent signs their kid up for cub scouts and buys the kid an official BSA pocket knife, does not mean that giving the knife to the kid to keep on his own is okay. That is NOT the way the cub scouts works.

The kid should not have had his scout knife until he had earned the scout's widdling chip. I don't know if six year olds can do that, btw - it usually happens at the "bear scout" level when the boys are about eight years old (there's a big difference between 8 year olds and 6 year olds) The knife safety training that the scouts require does cover that you are NOT to ever take knives to places where they are not allowed, such as school.

So - in short - this is just another stupid, irresponsible parent. The fact that cub scouts are even mentioned as some sort of cop-out or excuse is just another example of a very positive organization being drug through the mud once again.

IMHO

[SpamBot]

This is a lose-lose situation for the administration. If they let this kid off, they set a precedent of ambiguity in the rules. As Dr. Cheese said, ambiguous rules often lead to harsher punishments for minorities on aggregate. Suspending the kid is DEFINITELY the right decision, despite the intent on the kid's part.

Oh, and also - Who gives that size knife to a six year old? I question the judgement of his scout leader on that bit.

[bass player 48]

Originally Posted by SpamBot

Oh, and also - Who gives that size knife to a six year old? I question the judgement of his scout leader on that bit.

NO! Don't blame the poor scouts. All they get is bad press.

PLEASE read my post above.

The scouts do NOT give kids knives.

The article is very misleading (based on the parents cock and bull story)

I guar-en-freakin-tee you that the scout leader did not provide the knife and that it was either purchased by the parents or another family member, probably from the boy scout / cub scout store, and given to the child in direct violation of the cub scout's actual policy.

Cub Scouts / BSA DO have official knives that can be purchased by responsable adults. Here's a link to the online store. http://scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/Sear...rs_per_page=15 The boy scout store won't sell a knife to a six year old. Your scout leader doesn't give you a knife or any of the gear - you have to buy it. Believe me - I wish they did give you camping gear. They don't.

All local scout groups require scouts to go through safty training (that teaches them not to carry a knife a place where it is not appropriate or not allowed) before they are allowed to carry their own knife that was bought with their own famliies money.

I did read the article - they make it sound like it was some gear that was issued to all six year old scouts. That is not true. It's spin.

SO - THE PARENTS bought the knife and gave it to the kid. The are trying to play it off like it's just a scout knife and their kid is a scout. The scouts do not allow this either.

When a scout leader finds out that a parent has provided a scout knife to a kid that shouldn't have one yet, they take the knife and give it to the parent and tell the parent that the kid may not carry the knife untill they "earn their widling chip" (saftey training). I've seen it happen.

They broke the rule in regards to pocket knives - the PARENTS broke the Cub Scout rules and the school rules.

[RWP]

Maybe this will help him understand how he needs to change the world we have created for him. However, I suspect things will be worse not better based on current trends.

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

That article from the New York Times made a point that needs to noticed. Many school districts have turned to no tolerance policies because whenever discretion is allowed, there are documentable instances of minority students being punished at higher rates.

I know someone will probably bring up the clip of Terrion Albert being murdered in Chicago to justify being harder on minority students, but it is important to note that the discrepancy happens to minority kids attending the same schools as suburban white kids, not just minority kids in really tough neighborhoods. I feel for the little boy who was suspended, but until administrations learn to be consistent, kids like Zachary Christie may end up catching it worse than they deserve.

Conversely, rules like this keep some parents from claiming that their gang-joining, butcher-knife-wielding "child" is being discriminated against.


Personally, I find all zero tolerance laws as ignorant as the people who inact them.

[Jared Lash]

Here's the problem for the school. Maybe this is a good kid who only brought his knife to eat his lunch. But suppose he gets angry (we all know how much impulse control the average 6 year old has) or some other kid takes it away and another student ends up in the hospital?

We've all read or watched news reports of violence with children that are way too young to be involved in such things. Now instead of being looked down upon for a seemingly ridiculous policy, the school is getting hammered by the public for allowing one first grader to stab another.

The bottom line is that a six year old should not have a knife at school and there's really no good way for a school to deal with it if one does.

[Revvv]

I am glad I am not the parent of this kid. That school and district would hate me. I would be there with my lawyer to rip them apart.

[Revvv]

Originally Posted by Jared Lash

Here's the problem for the school. Maybe this is a good kid who only brought his knife to eat his lunch. But suppose he gets angry (we all know how much impulse control the average 6 year old has) or some other kid takes it away and another student ends up in the hospital?

We've all read or watched news reports of violence with children that are way too young to be involved in such things. Now instead of being looked down upon for a seemingly ridiculous policy, the school is getting hammered by the public for allowing one first grader to stab another.

The bottom line is that a six year old should not have a knife at school and there's really no good way for a school to deal with it if one does.

I agree, but the punishment does not fit the crime here. A day, 3 days, maybe a week of suspension, but 1 month and a half is freaking ridiculous.

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by Jared Lash

Here's the problem for the school. Maybe this is a good kid who only brought his knife to eat his lunch. But suppose he gets angry (we all know how much impulse control the average 6 year old has) or some other kid takes it away and another student ends up in the hospital?

We've all read or watched news reports of violence with children that are way too young to be involved in such things. Now instead of being looked down upon for a seemingly ridiculous policy, the school is getting hammered by the public for allowing one first grader to stab another.

The bottom line is that a six year old should not have a knife at school and there's really no good way for a school to deal with it if one does.

Sure there are. There are plenty of ways to deal with this, all of them tailored to the individual situation. This is about liability and dodging discrimination complaints, not logic or safety.