Advice: Cold house in new england/bad insulation

[warnergt]

I have the solution.
Snuggies for the family!

[chuck norriss]

I think warner is on to something.

[Floyd Eye]

Replace old windows with thermal windows and replace old doors with new units and weather seal around them properly.

If re-siding your house, do not waste your time with exterior insulation. The best of these has an R value of 3 @75 degrees F. Have insulation blown into the walls from the outside, then side over it. You will need to locate fireblocks and blow the insulation above and below them.

Make sure you have adequate insulation in the attic. If not, add more. Batts are better for this, trust me.

There is no easy/cheap solution to your problem unless you consider installing a wood stove the solution ( which it can be, as long as you are handy with a chainsaw and have access to dead trees).

I am a contractor by the way.

[a2zbassman]

^

This works well also if you are residing. Forgot about that option.

Also, if you can't spray foam anything else, at least spray the rim-joists/box-ends (if the whole home isn't finished and they are still accessible). This is the number one point of air infiltration in most homes. In fact it is now part of the building codes in MN and ND to have this done on any newly built structure.

[duff beer]

Originally Posted by Floyd Eye

Replace old windows with thermal windows and replace old doors with new units and weather seal around them properly.

If re-siding your house, do not waste your time with exterior insulation. The best of these has an R value of 3 @75 degrees F. Have insulation blown into the walls from the outside, then side over it. You will need to locate fireblocks and blow the insulation above and below them.

Make sure you have adequate insulation in the attic. If not, add more. Batts are better for this, trust me.

There is no easy/cheap solution to your problem unless you consider installing a wood stove the solution ( which it can be, as long as you are handy with a chainsaw and have access to dead trees).

I am a contractor by the way.

You're a contractor??

Exterior insulation is not a "waste of time"...every situation is different and there is not one solution that fits every home and every budget. If someone is replacing siding, then adding insulation on the exterior may be cost effective (and less intrusive) in certain situations.

1" of foamboard has an R value of 5...not sure why you said the "best" exterior insulation only has R3??

Also, R value measures resistance to heat transfer, and does not change with temperature. R20 is R20 whether it's -40 or +104.

Batts are not better in the attic...blown in cellulose is inexpensive and covers like a blanket with no gaps. Gaps are inevitable with batts.

I'm not a contractor. But I upgraded the insulation in my house using a variety of products, depending on the situation. Batts in the walls, foamboard on the outside when siding was replaced, blown in cellulose in the attic, etc. I also sealed all the gaps and made sure the weather stripping was sealing correctly.

It cost me less than $400 to heat a 1000 square foot house on the Canadian prairies...for an entire winter.

[Floyd Eye]

Originally Posted by duff beer

You're a contractor??

Exterior insulation is not a "waste of time"...every situation is different and there is not one solution that fits every home and every budget. If someone is replacing siding, then adding insulation on the exterior may be cost effective (and less intrusive) in certain situations.

1" of foamboard has an R value of 5...not sure why you said the "best" exterior insulation only has R3??

Also, R value measures resistance to heat transfer, and does not change with temperature. R20 is R20 whether it's -40 or +104.

Batts are not better in the attic...blown in cellulose is inexpensive and covers like a blanket with no gaps. Gaps are inevitable with batts.

I'm not a contractor. But I upgraded the insulation in my house using a variety of products, depending on the situation. Batts in the walls, foamboard on the outside when siding was replaced, blown in cellulose in the attic, etc. I also sealed all the gaps and made sure the weather stripping was sealing correctly.

It cost me less than $400 to heat a 1000 square foot house on the Canadian prairies...for an entire winter.

1" has an R value of 3. Even if it had an R value of 10, tell me how that is even remotely comparable to wall insulation, which is typically 17-23?

Batts (R value 23) is a better insulator, period.


As for R value, here's an example. Pay attention to the second column. By the way, this is printed right on the 1" and 3/4 and every other extruded polypropolene/polystyrene insulation available.

http://greenguard.pactiv.com/residen...d-underlayment



You don't know what you're talking about son. I have been doing this for 25 years and I DO know what I'm talking about.


Edit* The 1" apparently does have an R value of 5 ( though it IS at a mean temperature of 75 degrees)

[Floyd Eye]

By the way, my electric bill in the winter ( 1200 sq. ft., electric furnace) is about $65 a month. I live in STL.

[a2zbassman]

Originally Posted by Floyd Eye

1" has an R value of 3. Even if it had an R value of 10, tell me how that is even remotely comparable to wall insulation, which is typically 17-23?

Batts (R value 23) is a better insulator, period.


As for R value, here's an example. Pay attention to the second column. By the way, this is printed right on the 1" and 3/4 and every other extruded polypropolene/polystyrene insulation available.

http://greenguard.pactiv.com/residen...d-underlayment



You don't know what you're talking about son. I have been doing this for 25 years and I DO know what I'm talking about.


Edit* The 1" apparently does have an R value of 5 ( though it IS at a mean temperature of 75 degrees)

The R value can/does vary per manufacturer of the extruded rigid foam. If I remember correctly, they can be as low as 2-3 per inch, and the one with the highest value is yellow and foil faced. I think that is a R-6 per inch. Can't remember who makes it though. Anyway, it comes closest to closed cell spray foam which is just shy of 7 per inch.

The highest rated Batt you're going to find for a 2x4 wall cavity [which is probably what the OP is working with] is the new stuff by Owens C... at an R-15. And it's quite a step up in price from the standard R-13. And the best for a 2x6 wall is R-21 . . . again a jump up in price from the standard R-19.

As far as all forms of insulation of an equal R value performing the same as each other . . . Well, in a perfectly controlled lab setting, maybe/probably?? In the real world, no way. 2" of closed cell spray foam - just under an R-14 - will out perform an R-21 fiberglass batt. Simply because it seals all the air infiltration points.

Originally Posted by duff beer

Snip . . .

Also, R value measures resistance to heat transfer, and does not change with temperature. R20 is R20 whether it's -40 or +104.

Batts are not better in the attic...blown in cellulose is inexpensive and covers like a blanket with no gaps. Gaps are inevitable with batts.

I'm not a contractor. But I upgraded the insulation in my house using a variety of products, depending on the situation. Batts in the walls, foamboard on the outside when siding was replaced, blown in cellulose in the attic, etc. I also sealed all the gaps and made sure the weather stripping was sealing correctly.

It cost me less than $400 to heat a 1000 square foot house on the Canadian prairies...for an entire winter.

I highlighted the key to your success here. Fiberglass only performs at its listed R value if you totally eliminate any air-flow through it [such as in a lab setting or a perfectly wrapped and sealed house]. The moment you get any flow, say due to the wind and an improperly wrapped house, that R value drops nearly by half. Also, due simply to how and what it is made of, if exposed to an outer wall [this would not apply in your case with the rigid foam on the outside] and the temp drops below something like -30 f, the R value halves again.

I had to learn all this stuff to answer questions at the "Home Shows" I get to work at every year.

And FYI: My boss heats his 3400 sq ft house, with 3" of foam in the walls and 5" in the ceiling, and a dual heat gas/off-peak electric, for around $130/month. And that's ND winters - Highs below freezing from mid Feb thru mid Mar, sometimes staying below 0 degrees for weeks at a time. plus a lot of wind. Duff, I see you're just north of me in Winnipeg so you know what kind of winters I'm talking about, maybe even worse up there . . . Ugh I can't imagine if they are.

Sorry, don't mean to derail the thread. Hope the OP, or anyone else can get something from this, if they're interested. If not . . . just ignore me . . .

[Downunderwonder]

The Japanese do the snuggy thing sitting on the floor together with heated table and duvet over the top. If you can't heat the house heat yourselves. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kotatsu

[duff beer]

a2zbassman:

Yes, it can get cold here... The exterior foamboard sold here is R5 per inch...standard pink is R12, and Roxul is also available (R14) for 2x4 walls. My house only has 2x4 walls, so I added 1" of foamboard on the outside (R5) to compliment the R14 that I added to the walls, total R19.

I also agree that spray foam is the best solution in most cases, but the cost can be 3-5 times as much as other methods. Batt insulation can be effective when installed correctly, unfortunately, it is often not installed correctly.

[Indiana Mike]

I'll say it again ...

Energy / house audit.

people may think they know all the "holes" in their house by guessing.

example ,,,I resided my house with the help of my brother ,who is a contractor.
We not only put insulation board on ,we also taped the seams of the insulation board. He also showed me how your sill plate shrinks and allows a big gap to form all the way around the bottom of a house . We sealed that as well. We also sealed the gap the formed around the top of the siding ,where it met the gables and overhangs .I found my drywall had gaps at the tops of the walls ,visible in the attic ,allowing air to move thru light switch and receptacle covers . I sealed those gaps and put the foam behind all my switches and receptacles . You can buy those really cheap at any home improvement store . I also sealed all my overhead light fixtures to stop heat loss.


It's not just insulating but also finding and sealing gaps that Aren't supposed to be there. That's where air pressurizing tests and thermal imaging tests come into play and show you where your losses are .

Did I have it performed?
No ,but I wish I had . My house is more efficient and it shows on my power and gas bill . But I still have a couple rooms with comfort issues . And I've covered a lot of it up with new stuff . So now it would be a big deal to perform any corrections.

[duff beer]

Originally Posted by Floyd Eye

1" has an R value of 3. Even if it had an R value of 10, tell me how that is even remotely comparable to wall insulation, which is typically 17-23?

Batts (R value 23) is a better insulator, period.

Of course R23 is better than R3, but you can't add R23 to 2x4 walls. However, you can add R14 to 2x4 walls, and R5 to the outside, which is what I did for a total of R19.

I used blown in cellulose in my attic...enough to reach R50 - R55. Blown in insulation is cheaper, faster, and works better than batts in the attic.

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Originally Posted by MatticusMania

Stock up on blankets.

You're joking, but this is a common "solution" with folks in this area. My house is the same age, and in the winter we just toss a thick blanket on when on the main floor- that or an extra sweater or (my personal favorite) wear a pair of pajama pants under my regular pants. My upstairs is really well insulated- we've only had to run the upstairs thermostat once, but the main floor with lots of windows always gets cold.

You get used to it.

[MatticusMania]

Originally Posted by Bryan R. Tyler

You're joking, but this is a common "solution" with folks in this area. My house is the same age, and in the winter we just toss a thick blanket on when on the main floor- that or an extra sweater or (my personal favorite) wear a pair of pajama pants under my regular pants. My upstairs is really well insulated- we've only had to run the upstairs thermostat once, but the main floor with lots of windows always gets cold.

You get used to it.

I wasnt even joking! Personally, I like a cold house and the ability to stay warm within it. Of course, I do live in SoCal, but in the coldest of winters I'll leave my windows open and snuggle up with some blankets, maybe get a fire going, and yes... flannel pajama pants!

[i_got_a_mohawk]

It depends on how cold and what the weather is like.

The cold doesn't bother me, but potential burst pipes and issues arising from damp do!

[MJ5150]

Originally Posted by MatticusMania

I wasnt even joking! Personally, I like a cold house and the ability to stay warm within it. Of course, I do live in SoCal, but in the coldest of winters I'll leave my windows open and snuggle up with some blankets, maybe get a fire going, and yes... flannel pajama pants!

Same here. Well, except the living in SoCal part. I'm in CenNewHamp.

-Mike

[Ziltoid]

I love sleeping in the "cold" with an extra blanket, sleeps wonderfully.

[Pilgrim]

Blown in fiberglass isn't the only way to do an attic. You can also blow in "cellulose," basically treated paper which is fire-resistant. It's pretty darn good insulation. Less obnoxious than blowing fiberglass, but still nasty enough to require respirators when you're doing the work.

[Phalex]

Dogs are great lap warmers!

Tauntaun's look pretty cozy too if you can deal with the smell.....

[a2zbassman]

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

Blown in fiberglass isn't the only way to do an attic. You can also blow in "cellulose," basically treated paper which is fire-resistant. It's pretty darn good insulation. Less obnoxious than blowing fiberglass, but still nasty enough to require respirators when you're doing the work.

Cellulose works well. It's biggest fault is that it tends to settle more quickly over time, especially if you live in a high humidity climate or tend to get moisture in your attic due to poor ventilation, meaning you lose some of that dead air space between the fibers which is what gives you the insulating value in the first place. Fiberglass tends to "puff" back up as it dries, cellulose not so much. So, you have to re-blow more often to keep your R value. BTW, all blown-in insulation settles over time and should be checked periodically to see if you need to add more.

On the plus side, it's more dense and won't blow around as much, or drift up, if you have a very drafty attic.

As one in the spray foam business, obviously we want to sell you on the foam so we can feed our families [or, as is the case for me, try and feed my endless GAS - ] . But, if you have enough attic space and proper ventilation, and don't want to spend the $$$ on foam, we suggest blown-in fiberglass over cellulose. In fact, as of a couple years ago, you can't find a local insulation contractor that offers blown-in cellulose in my area. This is mostly due to the fact that the fiberglass performs better in our climate.