Alternative fuels?

[vinny]

The drilling thread got me thinking. Lots of folks are fired-up about alternative fuels so I'd like to share some thoughts & get a meaningful discussion started (yeah, right).

Let's revisit the ethanol answer. First, it's not very practial in terms of return on investment. One reason is that it just doesn't produce the energy per dollar to make if beneficial to use in my truck. Couple that with the expenditure of resources to produce it & it gets very costly. It takes more than a gallon of water (four, I think) to produce a gallon of ethanol for fuel. That coupled with the loss in food supply offset & it starts to look very short-sighted. After all, if farmers are going to make a better deal for themselves by growing crops to make fuel, we will lose at least some of our capacity to grow food. The net result to that should then be food prices will rise as availability shrinks. I think even the people who set this in motion some time back are having to rethink the cost/benefit ratio of ethanol as fuel.

What about water separation to use the hydrogen? Well, on the surface this appears to have some promise. Although, we currently don't have the capacity to produce hydrogen from water cheaply enough or in sufficient quantities to fuel our transportation.

Here's where I pose a question I haven't heard anyone consider. All we hear about is the cleanliness of burning hydrogen, since the by-product is water vapor. Apparently no harm...right? Well who knows? Consider the potential impact of increased water vapor suspended in th atmosphere. Will we see global humidity levels rise? Average rainfall go up? Will the deserts become green & more prone to flooding? I don't know, but it seems to bear more consideration, like we may have done prior to jumping on the ethanol bandwagon. Just a thought...discuss.

[hbarcat]

Originally Posted by ProBeachBum

For now the best solution might be to mod your car or truck to run on water or HHO.

Water or HHO as fuel is a proven scam. You might as well try to get your vehicle to run on sand.

[hbarcat]

1) Ethanol can be made from other sources of sugar besides corn and once it becomes economical to convert cellulose into sugar (biomass technology), alcohol can be a very practical (as well as clean, renewable and carbon neutral) fuel for vehicles.

2) Hydrogen is a great fuel except for the fact that it takes up so much storage volume in a vehicle, even when compressed and cooled to extreme degrees, that it's not practical for use in smaller vehicles like passenger cars. The other way to store it is in a fuel cell but the technology is not available yet to make that practical, either.

3) Electric cars, powered by a rechargeable battery, a available today and are a great option for city commuters who make predictable (and short) trips. However, they are also limited by the technology available to use in very small vehicles and many people just don't want to drive one on the same road as other cars and trucks which are much larger and more massive. Battery technology will have to make huge gains before electric cars become practical (or even clean).

4) Diesel fuel can be made from plants and this has some possibilities as a renewable and carbon neutral fuel, but diesel production suffers from the same practical problems that plague alcohol production.

[Philbiker]

Nothing can compare with petroleum on any level.

There will be substantially less private individual transportation in 20 years than there is now in most of the developed world. People will stay home and ride bicycles to get groceries, etc. Electric trains and trolleys will expand faster in the 21st century than the passenger car did in the 20th. It will be a very different world.

[Brad Barker]

Originally Posted by Philbiker

Nothing can compare with petroleum on any level.

There will be substantially less private individual transportation in 20 years than there is now in most of the developed world. People will stay home and ride bicycles to get groceries, etc. Electric trains and trolleys will expand faster in the 21st century than the passenger car did in the 20th. It will be a very different world.

nuclear energy?

this is a fun read: http://muller.lbl.gov/teaching/Physi...nergy-2008.pdf

[Philbiker]

Originally Posted by Brad Barker

nuclear energy?

this is a fun read: http://muller.lbl.gov/teaching/Physi...nergy-2008.pdf

Yes, lots and lots of nuclear energy. Nice read, btw - very succinctly explains how fantastic gasoline is. We really take if for granted!

[Brad Barker]

Originally Posted by Philbiker

Yes, lots and lots of nuclear energy. Nice read, btw - very succinctly explains how fantastic gasoline is. We really take if for granted!

on the course site proper, there are links to NPR interviews with dr. mueller that i think are worth checking out if ya have the time. i listened to one, and it was probably a good 45 minutes, including the listener-call in portion.

(one of the listeners sounded like he was about to have a heart attack while accusing dr. muller of advancing nuclear propaganda!)

[bassrique]

http://www.alcoholcanbeagas.com/

Watch the vid. Look up his other vids on YouTube.

While I don't agree with much of what this cat says, I will be buying his book.

[ryco]

Air powered car from Popular Mechanics article.

Or maybe stick a sail out of a VW sunroof.