Art & Conflicts

[Ziltoid]

I was just curious to see what's your take on art that "causes conflict" or "shock art". Now this sounds very vague so here are a few examples and two categories:

Shock-art cases:
Mapplethorpe's G-S&M (that I won't link here)
R. Mutt's (M. Duchamp) urinal:

Immersion (often called PissChrist, that I won't link here)

Now those are more "extreme cases" (Yes, I'm aware there's more shocking stuff out here). Those are clearly pieces meant to shock or to defy.


Now the second category I could call "art that becomes conflict"
Richard Serra's tilted wall:

The artist lost in this case, the wall was removed.
Buren's Colones:

In this case the artist won.


Now this may seem random, but I'm just trying to gather thoughts on art and the conflict surrounding it. I thought a few examples divided into two kinds of polemics could help. Street art also comes to my mind when we mention the whole conflictual art theme.

So yeah, basically what's your take on avant-garde, shock-art, cultural conflicts surrounding certain art pieces, etc.

[bongomania]

My guiding light: Does it inspire the viewer to think or feel something more beyond just shocked or bothered? Or does the shock/bother achieve an important sociopolitical goal? If yes to either of those, then I'm a huge fan and supporter. If "no" though, I write the art off as childish attention-seeking unworthy of adult consideration.

[DwaynieAD]

I'd rather just look at awesome paintings. http://www.facebook.com/TAGgalleries?fref=ts

[dozicusmaximus]

Is graffiti shock art?

[Ziltoid]

Originally Posted by bongomania

My guiding light: Does it inspire the viewer to think or feel something more beyond just shocked or bothered? Or does the shock/bother achieve an important sociopolitical goal? If yes to either of those, then I'm a huge fan and supporter. If "no" though, I write the art off as childish attention-seeking unworthy of adult consideration.

That's kind of hard to judge, isn't it? Meaning comes from the individuals' perspectives.

Originally Posted by DwaynieAD

I'd rather just look at awesome paintings. http://www.facebook.com/TAGgalleries?fref=ts

But what's awesome by your standards can be another guy's trash. Again, perspectives. The link you posted as some pretty modern art, plenty of "critical theory" adept would frown upon it.

Originally Posted by dozicusmaximus

Is graffiti shock art?

It definitely can be! I'd even say that the mere fact it defies the authorities calls for a reaction and/or marks the opposition to the system.

[MJ5150]

If it offends or shocks someone, stop looking at it. Acknowledge and move on. It's like those people who take a sniff of air, ask if someone farted, then take a big whiff and say "OK, who farted because this stinks?".

-Mike

[Ziltoid]

Originally Posted by MJ5150

If it offends or shocks someone, stop looking at it. Acknowledge and move on. It's like those people who take a sniff of air, ask if someone farted, then take a big whiff and say "OK, who farted because this stinks?".

-Mike

But then, there's extremes and the grey zone in the middle. Without being a "shocker" or something that can offend, there can certainly be big disagreements over pieces like Malevich's:



Some say it's trash, others pure genius.

There's definitely a debate between what's sacred and profane in the art world, especially when it comes to the avant-garde.

[MJ5150]

Conflict over that? Really? Some people really dig these days for stuff to argue about or be offended over.

-Mikei

[Ziltoid]

Originally Posted by MJ5150

Conflict over that? Really? Some people really dig these days for stuff to argue about or be offended over.

-Mikei

It raises questions.

But from a theoric standpoint, is conflict a bad thing? Say form Arendt's perspective, the conflict is necessary for culture to happen.

[LiquidMidnight]

Originally Posted by bongomania

My guiding light: Does it inspire the viewer to think or feel something more beyond just shocked or bothered? Or does the shock/bother achieve an important sociopolitical goal? If yes to either of those, then I'm a huge fan and supporter. If "no" though, I write the art off as childish attention-seeking unworthy of adult consideration.

This.

I admire provocative art, but if it's shock just for the sake of sock, then it comes off as highly pretentious to me.

A lot of "modern art" falls into that pretentious category, IMO. Many of the people working in the modern art idiom are really just rehashing what the Dada artists have already done - except Dada art was actually informed by a rather profound philosophy: That a human race that would have committed the atrocities of the first World War didn't deserve to live in a world with beautiful art. Modern art has always come off more like, "Let's see what crazy crapy I can stick together and then try and impose some pretentious meaning to it."

[MJ5150]

Originally Posted by Ziltoid

But from a theoric standpoint, is conflict a bad thing?

I see no harm in conflict so long as both parties involved are mature enough to work through it. For example, the wife and I have been in conflict a few times over the 16 years we've been married. We always find an amicable solution. Heck, I've had conflicts here since I joined 10 years ago. Sometimes I dealt with it properly, other times I did not and made the conflict worse.

So anyways....is that paper picture art to you? It's not to me.

-Mike

[Ziltoid]

Originally Posted by MJ5150

I see no harm in conflict so long as both parties involved are mature enough to work through it. For example, the wife and I have been in conflict a few times over the 16 years we've been married. We always find an amicable solution. Heck, I've had conflicts here since I joined 10 years ago. Sometimes I dealt with it properly, other times I did not and made the conflict worse.

So anyways....is that paper picture art to you? It's not to me.

-Mike

Conflict in art and culture is a pretty big field of studies. Be it the relations between critics and artists; local, global, and glocal; massmedias and popular culture versus high culture; the role of art in social movements, in politics; cyberculture; cultural omnivorousness and the ideas behind selection; the cultural and identical constructs; American Cultural wars; the critic approach versus the cultural one; and so on and on.

Basically it ranges from Arendt's culture crisis up to very actual authors. It's a busy field.

And for Malevich's piece:

It is to me, it's pretty much as far as you can go into minimalism, I think it's pretty neat somebody pushed the limit to its furthest(?) point.

[MJ5150]

I'm going to have to bow out of this conversation. I'm used to talking about coffee, wine gums, hockey, and football. This is beyond my intelligence level.

-Mike

[Bloodhammer]

How about Throbbing Gristle's music/stage performances/art?

I like the first era stuff. Haven't really paid attention to anything they've done recently...

[Ziltoid]

Originally Posted by MJ5150

I'm going to have to bow out of this conversation. I'm used to talking about coffee, wine gums, hockey, and football. This is beyond my intelligence level.

-Mike

It's definitely not beyond your intelligence level. Academic('ish) discussions often have the Tower of Babel effect going on. Heck, if an engineer drops by and starts talking about Hydraulics fluids dynamics or something, I'll be lost.

[Ziltoid]

Originally Posted by Bloodhammer

How about Throbbing Gristle's music/stage performances/art?

I like the first era stuff. Haven't really paid attention to anything they've done recently...

That's a good example, the beginnings of Industrial, right?

Generally speaking types, trends, etc originate from the margins of society to then become central. Electronic Dance Music started in Detroit's warehouses and it is now everywhere.

There's also so many subgenres, some American researcher did a paper on techno music subgenres, I don't remember how many there was but it was pretty crazy.

Heck, there's even what they call "Glitch music"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKmgc1NYg4M

I mentioned the example of techno music subgenres, but yeah... metal.

[Bloodhammer]

See, now there's a good example of "found sound" in that link you posted. (I like it BTW ) That has a lot more to do with industrial music than electronic dance music (like techno). Ever heard of Einstürzende Neubauten? I used to have one of their early albums and one track was made by breaking glass and smashing things IIRC. They used televisions, metal pipes, and other stuff and recorded in warehouses and large culverts. It was strangely good. The feeling is that of living in an industrial wasteland.

As far as metal goes, a lot of it is controversial for the sake of controversy, so I'm not really going to go into that so much.

[mpdd]

it's a business, nothing more, nothing less, something shakes stuff up then everybody imitates it, and then that's the status quo, check out adorno

[Ziltoid]

Originally Posted by mpdd

it's a business, nothing more, nothing less, something shakes stuff up then everybody imitates it, and then that's the status quo, check out adorno

Adorno is in the Frankfurt school of thoughts, critical approach. Critical approach nowadays opposed to the cultural approach. It's a point of view most do not agree with anymore.

[mpdd]

he also wrote some interesting stuff about jazz music and people becoming more mechanical, i think i blocked out the cultural approach after grad school