Go Back   TalkBass Forums > Bass Guitar Forums > Bass Guitar Forums > Off Topic [BG]
Register Rules/FAQ/CUP Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Off Topic [BG] Non-music-related discussion and chat


Supporting Membership
Thank You

Latest Supporting Member
Donate to Upgrade Today

View Poll Results: Do we bail them out or let them go bankrupt?
Bailout 6 7.06%
Bankruptcy 68 80.00%
I don't know 11 12.94%
Voters: 85. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1  
Old 09-30-2008, 10:23 AM
The Crusader's Avatar
NYC BassFest 8/12/2012
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Elmont, NY (near NYC)
Send a message via AIM to The Crusader Send a message via Yahoo to The Crusader
Supporting Member
Bankruptcy or Bailout? You decide...

Sign in to disble this ad
From CNN commentary: http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/...ef=mpstoryview

Commentary: Bankruptcy, not bailout, is the right answer

By Jeffrey A. Miron
Special to CNN


Editor's note: Jeffrey A. Miron is senior lecturer in economics at Harvard University. A Libertarian, he was one of 166 academic economists who signed a letter to congressional leaders last week opposing the government bailout plan.
Economist Jeffrey Miron says the bailout plan presented to Congress was the wrong solution to the crisis


CAMBRIDGE, Massachusetts (CNN) -- Congress has balked at the Bush administration's proposed $700 billion bailout of Wall Street. Under this plan, the Treasury would have bought the "troubled assets" of financial institutions in an attempt to avoid economic meltdown.

This bailout was a terrible idea. Here's why.

The current mess would never have occurred in the absence of ill-conceived federal policies. The federal government chartered Fannie Mae in 1938 and Freddie Mac in 1970; these two mortgage lending institutions are at the center of the crisis. The government implicitly promised these institutions that it would make good on their debts, so Fannie and Freddie took on huge amounts of excessive risk.

Worse, beginning in 1977 and even more in the 1990s and the early part of this century, Congress pushed mortgage lenders and Fannie/Freddie to expand subprime lending. The industry was happy to oblige, given the implicit promise of federal backing, and subprime lending soared.

This subprime lending was more than a minor relaxation of existing credit guidelines. This lending was a wholesale abandonment of reasonable lending practices in which borrowers with poor credit characteristics got mortgages they were ill-equipped to handle.

Once housing prices declined and economic conditions worsened, defaults and delinquencies soared, leaving the industry holding large amounts of severely depreciated mortgage assets.

The fact that government bears such a huge responsibility for the current mess means any response should eliminate the conditions that created this situation in the first place, not attempt to fix bad government with more government.

The obvious alternative to a bailout is letting troubled financial institutions declare bankruptcy. Bankruptcy means that shareholders typically get wiped out and the creditors own the company.

Bankruptcy does not mean the company disappears; it is just owned by someone new (as has occurred with several airlines). Bankruptcy punishes those who took excessive risks while preserving those aspects of a businesses that remain profitable.

In contrast, a bailout transfers enormous wealth from taxpayers to those who knowingly engaged in risky subprime lending. Thus, the bailout encourages companies to take large, imprudent risks and count on getting bailed out by government. This "moral hazard" generates enormous distortions in an economy's allocation of its financial resources.

Thoughtful advocates of the bailout might concede this perspective, but they argue that a bailout is necessary to prevent economic collapse. According to this view, lenders are not making loans, even for worthy projects, because they cannot get capital. This view has a grain of truth; if the bailout does not occur, more bankruptcies are possible and credit conditions may worsen for a time.

Talk of Armageddon, however, is ridiculous scare-mongering. If financial institutions cannot make productive loans, a profit opportunity exists for someone else. This might not happen instantly, but it will happen.

Further, the current credit freeze is likely due to Wall Street's hope of a bailout; bankers will not sell their lousy assets for 20 cents on the dollar if the government might pay 30, 50, or 80 cents.

The costs of the bailout, moreover, are almost certainly being understated. The administration's claim is that many mortgage assets are merely illiquid, not truly worthless, implying taxpayers will recoup much of their $700 billion.

If these assets are worth something, however, private parties should want to buy them, and they would do so if the owners would accept fair market value. Far more likely is that current owners have brushed under the rug how little their assets are worth.

The bailout has more problems. The final legislation will probably include numerous side conditions and special dealings that reward Washington lobbyists and their clients.

Anticipation of the bailout will engender strategic behavior by Wall Street institutions as they shuffle their assets and position their balance sheets to maximize their take. The bailout will open the door to further federal meddling in financial markets.

So what should the government do? Eliminate those policies that generated the current mess. This means, at a general level, abandoning the goal of home ownership independent of ability to pay. This means, in particular, getting rid of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, along with policies like the Community Reinvestment Act that pressure banks into subprime lending.

The right view of the financial mess is that an enormous fraction of subprime lending should never have occurred in the first place. Someone has to pay for that. That someone should not be, and does not need to be, the U.S. taxpayer.
__________________
Got Parts To Donate?
Warmoth Owner's #14
Progressive Rock Players Club #156
Gecko Owner's #14
Dingwall Owner's #22
Fender Precision Owner's Club #901

Last edited by The Crusader : 09-30-2008 at 10:25 AM.
  #2  
Old 09-30-2008, 10:33 AM
TB's resident Rush freak
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Yup. Kind of goes back to what we were talking about in a previous (now closed) thread.

Let's see if this one can stay open. Discussion of this topic does not automatically mean it has to be political.

-Mark
__________________
Lefty Union Member #101
Minnesota Bassists Club #10
Quote:
mongo2: "Well, you did barf on your bass."
Fassa Albrecht: "It was an ACCIDENT!"
  #3  
Old 09-30-2008, 10:39 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Send a message via Skype™ to FreaqyFrequency
Ladies and gents,

Might I present the visual definition of a trillion?

http://orlingrabbe.com/trillions.php

If you counted to a million by one every second, you'd get there in a little over 12 days. If you counted to a billion every second, you'd arrive in about 31 years and 8-1/2 months.

And if you counted to a trillion... in 31,688 years you would be done.

We cannot even begin to imagine how much money is being thrown around. There's insane, and then there's beyond description.

Last edited by FreaqyFrequency : 09-30-2008 at 10:49 AM.
  #4  
Old 09-30-2008, 10:46 AM
fenderx55's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NYC/LI
Send a message via AIM to fenderx55
Supporting Member
I voted bankruptcy, however, before reading that piece I would have voted for a bailout. I live in the NY suburbs but I work in the city as a new hire at a company in the luxury sector. Usually, high end luxury does ok in times like these, however, 100% of our customer base are affluent women, and their husbands are telling them not to shop. This is a problem.

But at the same time, if the long term benefits of "teaching them a lesson" outweight the short term, then I guess I can go along with that... mostly because I live with my parents.

I gotta say though, I'm not looking forward to what this will do to Manhattan. We're going to lose billions in revenue when brokers and the others on wall street stop spending or move. While they're a fraction of the population, they represent the majority of taxation and discretional spending. A really good illustration of this is the side-by-side BMW and Mercedes dealerships in the Financial District, strategically located to suck in guys with a fresh bonus burning a hole through their Burberry suits. The Times or NY magazine reported on this last week, I'll see if I can find it and edit this post, for nothing else than to back up the above. It's not just the city and Long Island that will hurt, but Jersey City, Connecticut, and the like will all feel this a bit.
Edit: Found it, or if not the article, something close: http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/20...anking-crisis/

I feel for the people that will lose their homes, I can't imagine the heartbreak of such a thing, but I thought I'd throw a light on the people being vilified. Did Wall Street act imprudently? Yup. But we must remember that there is literally an army of people that will be touched by this: doormen, delivery services, restaurants, theater--basically anyone in the service industry.

One of the things bothering me is that the pundits throw around the quip that "what's good for wall st isn't good for main st," and I'd like to point out that I have a main street too. New York City has many main streets and they're going to hurt. Does warrant a 700 billion dollar pay out from everyone else? No. But I think I'm a little sensitive, having lived in and around Manhattan for my life, to the far far right wing referring to the City as evil, the new Babylon, etc. I even took a course in that kind of thing. There are just as many people in this city that didn't mess with someone's money a la Boiler Room. Let's not start the whole Small Town vs. Big City Liberal thing. That's so Decision 2004.

Is this thread political? if so I retract my statement and I was never here.
__________________
Shawty got low, low, low, low, low, low low.

Last edited by fenderx55 : 09-30-2008 at 10:51 AM.
  #5  
Old 09-30-2008, 10:54 AM
GregC's Avatar
Johnny and Joe
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago
GOLD Supporting Member
That's a political editorial, not a balanced view of the situation. That's all I'm gonna say here.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim C View Post
All these micro guys keep throwing a single 12AX7 behind the input jack with the marketing team shouting "has a tube; sounds like tubes".
LOG #143
  #6  
Old 09-30-2008, 10:54 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: North Dakota
It is an amount of money that most people can't even wrap their mind around. Let the chips fall. Wacovia went belly up and was bought out. It will happen to other banks/companies as well. It happens all the time.
  #7  
Old 09-30-2008, 11:00 AM
MonetBass's Avatar
My favorite songs were never heard on the radio
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Tulsa, OK
Supporting Member
I refuse to pay for the government's screw-ups.
  #8  
Old 09-30-2008, 11:03 AM
MakiSupaStar's Avatar
The Lowdown Diggler
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
Supporting Member
Bankrupt.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Perry View Post
Oh, and I'm clearly retarded.


Down and Dirty | hi life in low fi

http://soundcloud.com/downanddirty/king-midas
  #9  
Old 09-30-2008, 11:08 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: somewhere in middle America
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonetBass View Post
I refuse to pay for the government's screw-ups.
It's not all about the government messing up. There was a lack of regulation in the lending market. This is mostly private sector. Trust me, people would complain if the government were setting rules and standards, obviously before something like this happened and showed why there needed to be some sort of intervention. Private citizens made poor judgment calls with their loans and other debt while lending institutions encouraged these loans to many who weren't truly able to afford them.
__________________
Fretless club member #6
6 String Bass Club Member #115
Club Bordwell #8
Peavey Cirrus Club Member #12
Bands
www.myspace.com/samoakesbass1/2/09 updated!!!!
www.myspace.com/queueonline
  #10  
Old 09-30-2008, 11:10 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: NJ
"No Bailout for you !"

*soup nazi voice off*
__________________
R.I.P. Dimebag Darrell
METAL CLUB Member #11 \m/
Bongo Club #24
ATK Club #22

"The world is full of Kings & Queens that blind your eyes & steal your dreams. It's Heaven and Hell" - R.J. Dio 1980
  #11  
Old 09-30-2008, 11:15 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Orlando
Send a message via AIM to Visirale
Bankruptcy, easily.

We can't always be bailing firms out. We need to let the market naturally correct itself for all the mortgage BS the country has created. I'm for laissez-faire economics, so just let the banks fail.

But they should tell me personally before it happens either way so I know whether to sell my stocks or buy more .
__________________
Input: Fender Precision Bass, Markbass Compressore
Output: GK MB210
  #12  
Old 09-30-2008, 11:31 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Northern Va.
Send a message via ICQ to jkritchey Send a message via AIM to jkritchey Send a message via MSN to jkritchey Send a message via Yahoo to jkritchey
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregC View Post
That's a political editorial, not a balanced view of the situation. That's all I'm gonna say here.
+11

This is not a proposed bailout of firms that benefits a bunch of fat cats. That's populist drivel. It's a rescue for the economy we all use. Keep reading, don't stop there.
__________________
~Jim
<Wry Witticism Here>
  #13  
Old 09-30-2008, 11:42 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Mooresville N.C.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregC View Post
That's a political editorial, not a balanced view of the situation. That's all I'm gonna say here.
Yep the poll is poluted with the C.N.N. article. Repost it with out the editorial.
  #14  
Old 09-30-2008, 11:47 AM
The Crusader's Avatar
NYC BassFest 8/12/2012
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Elmont, NY (near NYC)
Send a message via AIM to The Crusader Send a message via Yahoo to The Crusader
Supporting Member
I actually went with the "I don't know" answer. I'm pro bailout, but at the same time, that's not really free market, now is it? So what's the right answer? I could argue it either way.....
__________________
Got Parts To Donate?
Warmoth Owner's #14
Progressive Rock Players Club #156
Gecko Owner's #14
Dingwall Owner's #22
Fender Precision Owner's Club #901
  #15  
Old 09-30-2008, 04:56 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Killadelphia, PA
Send a message via AIM to biohazed Send a message via MSN to biohazed Send a message via Yahoo to biohazed
I'm Anti -Bailout ... I'm so sick of the government bailing out thise big companies .. why not do something to help the people of this country instead of covering up Big Business screw-ups. Instead of paying off all that money to WaMu and whatever other company why not do something like pay off everyone's mortgage to a certain amount ... that way it may help jump start our failing economy
__________________
Ibanez Owner #282 - 5 String Club #201 - Passive Club #10 - Brutal Bassist 6.16 - Epiphone Club #26 - P-Bass Club #573 Lefty Union #164 - Green Bass Club #1
  #16  
Old 09-30-2008, 04:59 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Northern Va.
Send a message via ICQ to jkritchey Send a message via AIM to jkritchey Send a message via MSN to jkritchey Send a message via Yahoo to jkritchey
With all due respect: the point of this is to do something to help the people of this country; namely, keep their banks, businesses and real estate markets functioning.

Keep reading there's good info out there...
__________________
~Jim
<Wry Witticism Here>
  #17  
Old 09-30-2008, 05:03 PM
Pat's the best!
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Northern Virginia, USA
Send a message via AIM to Philbiker
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkritchey View Post
With all due respect: the point of this is to do something to help the people of this country; namely, keep their banks, businesses and real estate markets functioning.

Keep reading there's good info out there...
That's the problem. The point is to keep business as usual running. Business is usual has proven untennable. What we need is a measure that intends to fix the problems that caused this situation in the first place.
  #18  
Old 09-30-2008, 05:09 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Northern Va.
Send a message via ICQ to jkritchey Send a message via AIM to jkritchey Send a message via MSN to jkritchey Send a message via Yahoo to jkritchey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philbiker View Post
That's the problem. The point is to keep business as usual running. Business is usual has proven untennable. What we need is a measure that intends to fix the problems that caused this situation in the first place.
Indeed but we need something immediate (IMVHO), and then something else, carefully considered,that will fix it. I don't think you can fix it in the time necessary to unfreeze the banks, and I don't think we can wait until it's perfect and the political winds are blowing just so.
__________________
~Jim
<Wry Witticism Here>
  #19  
Old 09-30-2008, 05:15 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Orlando
Send a message via AIM to Visirale
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkritchey View Post
Indeed but we need something immediate (IMVHO), and then something else, carefully considered,that will fix it. I don't think you can fix it in the time necessary to unfreeze the banks, and I don't think we can wait until it's perfect and the political winds are blowing just so.
But at what point do we just need to let a bank failure be a bank failure?
__________________
Input: Fender Precision Bass, Markbass Compressore
Output: GK MB210
  #20  
Old 09-30-2008, 05:23 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Northern Va.
Send a message via ICQ to jkritchey Send a message via AIM to jkritchey Send a message via MSN to jkritchey Send a message via Yahoo to jkritchey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Visirale View Post
But at what point do we just need to let a bank failure be a bank failure?
Single bank? Let it go. We already have. I was referring to the banking system, not any individual bank.


Linc: That's the kind of political stuff that will close this thread.
__________________
~Jim
<Wry Witticism Here>
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Follow TalkBass on Twitter   Visit TalkBass on Facebook  

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:26 AM.




Copyright 2011 Talk Music Group Inc. All rights reserved.
Play guitar? Visit our new sister site TalkGuitar.com [beta]
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.12
Copyright ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.