Blacks in Libya Update

[Dr. Cheese]

Libya's NTC shackled by prisoner overload - Africa - Al Jazeera English


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/05/wo...r=1&ref=africa


I just want to provide some more info on subject that I posted about a week ago.

[Relic]

This is what makes me lose hope in almost anything mankind does anymore...
You have these rebels who overthrew (or nearly overthrew at this point) a brutal dictator and I would love to be able to view them as "the good guys" you know? The heroes that ousted this jerk and formed a better country bent on peace and fairness to all, etc etc. But so far it's starting to look like the same old thing in many ways. How freaking disheartening.

[onosson]

Originally Posted by Relic

This is what makes me lose hope in almost anything mankind does anymore...
You have these rebels who overthrew (or nearly overthrew at this point) a brutal dictator and I would love to be able to view them as "the good guys" you know? The heroes that ousted this jerk and formed a better country bent on peace and fairness to all, etc etc. But so far it's starting to look like the same old thing in many ways. How freaking disheartening.

If your view of humanity is that there are "good guys" who will beat out the "bad guys", then you are just setting yourself up for disappointment.

[Mark Latimour]

Originally Posted by Relic

This is what makes me lose hope in almost anything mankind does anymore...
You have these rebels who overthrew (or nearly overthrew at this point) a brutal dictator and I would love to be able to view them as "the good guys" you know? The heroes that ousted this jerk and formed a better country bent on peace and fairness to all, etc etc. But so far it's starting to look like the same old thing in many ways. How freaking disheartening.

I don't suppose that sort of behaviour is anything new. IIRC the US decalred independence from England in 1776 with a declaration that said "all men are created equal" and yet it took 100 or so more years before slaves were emancipated and until what, the 1960's until civil rights were granted fully. I imagine there are many more examples of this kind of "inconsistent" behaviour.

[MJ5150]

Eh, these guys who come along and attack and kill people to take over the current government are no better than the government they are trying to overthrow.

-Mike

[Relic]

Originally Posted by onosson

If your view of humanity is that there are "good guys" who will beat out the "bad guys", then you are just setting yourself up for disappointment.

I know. I study enough history to know that "good guys" and "bad guys" really don't exist per se. It's just that sometimes you'll get a regime that's a bit better than the last one. That's about all you can hope for these days.

Originally Posted by Mark Latimour

I don't suppose that sort of behaviour is anything new. IIRC the US decalred independence from England in 1776 with a declaration that said "all men are created equal" and yet it took 100 or so more years before slaves were emancipated and until what, the 1960's until civil rights were granted fully. I imagine there are many more examples of this kind of "inconsistent" behaviour.

Yep, many examples..
The original draft actually contained a clause condemning slavery. Not everyone liked that, so it was removed so it could be "palatable" to all colonies. We were on the right track with the first draft but maybe have another 100 years to go before we're where they envisioned us in regards to "all men being equal".

[Dr. Cheese]

Relic, I think that you bringing up good guys and bad guys was a good thing. US media loves a simple story when it comes to complicated foreign situations, and way too many of us in America accept it at face value. That is why we are always bummed when the these revolutions do not turn out the way we hoped they would.

The story of race, Africa, and the Sahara is really fascinating. I cannot talk about it within the current context without violating the rules, so I will not, but this is a subject I have studied and have seen firsthand in what is now The Republic of Sudan.

[Dr. Cheese]

The other great irony is that one of the big factors behind the European push to help the rebels was to keep Italy, France, and Spain from having to absorb another wave of African refugees - Libyans. In other words, the same Libyans who claim to fear dark skinned Africans are seen as dark skinned Africans themselves when they cross the Mediterrenean and try to find work in Europe. Heck, they often in up living around the same blacks they despise so much.

[onosson]

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

Relic, I think that you bringing up good guys and bad guys was a good thing. US media loves a simple story when it comes to complicate foreign situations, and way too many of us in America accept it at face value.

Not just US media, and not just Americans. It is too bad that more people aren't interested in hearing from diverse sources, especially in this age of global communication.

[Tituscrow]

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

The other great irony is that one of the big factors behind the European push to help the rebels was to keep Italy, France, and Spain from having to absorb another wave of African refugees - Libyans. In other words, the same Libyans who claim to fear dark skinned Africans are seen as dark skinned Africans themselves when they cross the Mediterrenean and try to find work in Europe. Heck, they often in up living around the same blacks they despise so much.

An excellent point well made. It's pretty galling to see all the uk press outlets overtly sympathising with the rebels, with nary a glance at the atrocities the 'good guys' may be committing along the way.

Sky News in particular are lapping it up...

[burk48237]

I suspect that much of what we've seen as the "Arab Spring" is a gigantic projection of Western values on a far different culture. And while Ghadaffi was a bad guy no doubt (I was for stopping civilian slaughter with military force), I'm not sure that throwing our lot in unconditionally with the rebels was a great idea. Many of the despots of the Arab world made a devils bargain with the extremist and the main cultural institutions of that region have been hotbeds of fundamentalism for a long time while the regimes looked the other way. I suspect we will be real lucky (as will the people of the region) if we don't end up with expanded growth of extremist theocracies in the region when the dust settles.

[Phil Smith]

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

Libya's NTC shackled by prisoner overload - Africa - Al Jazeera English


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/05/wo...r=1&ref=africa


I just want to provide some more info on subject that I posted about a week ago.

I thought NATO's mandate was to protect civilians?

[Dr. Cheese]

Originally Posted by Phil Smith

I thought NATO's mandate was to protect civilians?

The rationale for attacking blacks was that they were mercenaries. Only persistence the African Union has forced the media to look at allegations of racism.

[MakiSupaStar]

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

The other great irony is that one of the big factors behind the European push to help the rebels was to keep Italy, France, and Spain from having to absorb another wave of African refugees - Libyans. In other words, the same Libyans who claim to fear dark skinned Africans are seen as dark skinned Africans themselves when they cross the Mediterrenean and try to find work in Europe. Heck, they often in up living around the same blacks they despise so much.

While these countries may legitimately harbor racial biases when it comes to immigration, you also have to consider the impact that illegal immigration from Africa has had on these countries and the EU as a whole. This might also play a big part in their actions. It's similar to illegal immigration through our southern border. In a nutshell it's economically draining (especially when you consider some of the countries failing right now) It just so happens that their illegal immigrants are predominately black, while ours are predominately brown. Now, whether or not this is their prime reasons for backing the rebels, I think that, while it may play a part in these European countries' motivation, I think that there are several other factors playing a larger part (mostly political and related to oil). Still, I haven't seen any evidence either way, and it's not like a country is going to openly state their motivations, so you might be right here.

[aborgman]

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

The rationale for attacking blacks was that they were mercenaries.

...and one of the confounding factors is that while most Black Africans in Libya were merely foreign workers, an all too large number WERE Ghaddafi employed mercenaries used expressly for the purpose of tamping down unrest among Libyans with different tribal affiliations than Ghaddafi.

[Dr. Cheese]

Originally Posted by aborgman

...and one of the confounding factors is that while most Black Africans in Libya were merely foreign workers, an all too large number WERE Ghaddafi employed mercenaries used expressly for the purpose of tamping down unrest among Libyans with different tribal affiliations than Ghaddafi.

No one is denying there were and are black mercenaries. For that matter, a BBC reporter mentioned seeing young Africans volunteering to go fight for Qaddaffi, not for money, but out of gratitude for public works he financed in their countries. Blacks were in Libya in large numbers because of Qaddaffi's policies, and because he was friendly to them and their countries. The problem was that many actual Libyans were poor relative to their country's oil wealth. As I said in an earlier thread, I believe thatmore than a little resentment against black Africans was due to the money Qaddaffi sent South instead of spending in his own country.

Still, it is fair to point out that is is pretty clear that the revolution has been an excuse to excercise predjudice because many killed or imprisoned Africans were known workers and had families. The NYT story cites a 61 year old black man who was arrested for witchcraft!

[Dr. Cheese]

Originally Posted by MakiSupaStar

While these countries may legitimately harbor racial biases when it comes to immigration, you also have to consider the impact that illegal immigration from Africa has had on these countries and the EU as a whole. This might also play a big part in their actions. It's similar to illegal immigration through our southern border. In a nutshell it's economically draining (especially when you consider some of the countries failing right now) It just so happens that their illegal immigrants are predominately black, while ours are predominately brown. Now, whether or not this is their prime reasons for backing the rebels, I think that, while it may play a part in these European countries' motivation, I think that there are several other factors playing a larger part (mostly political and related to oil). Still, I haven't seen any evidence either way, and it's not like a country is going to openly state their motivations, so you might be right here.

When the revolt first began, there were many stories on BBC and NPR about Italy in particular, being concerned with too many Libyans coming to thir country.

[aborgman]

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

No one is denying there were and are black mercenaries. For that matter, a BBC reporter mentioned seeing young Africans volunteering to go fight for Qaddaffi, not for money, but out of gratitude for public works he financed in their countries. Blacks were in Libya in large numbers because of Qaddaffi's policies, and because he was friendly to them and their countries. The problem was that many actual Libyans were poor relative to their country's oil wealth. As I said in an earlier thread, I believe that more than a little resentment against black Africans was due to the money Qaddaffi sent South instead of spending in his own country.

Certainly true...

...and part of that resentment against black Africans was due to them killing off large numbers of Libyans at the behest of Qaddaffi.

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

The NYT story cites a 61 year old black man who was arrested for witchcraft!

Oh, no doubt folks are getting punished on any pretext... mobs sadly go that way.

[MakiSupaStar]

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

When the revolt first began, there were many stories on BBC and NPR about Italy in particular, being concerned with too many Libyans coming to thir country.

Yeah, I know that there's been a concern in UK, but I didn't know about Italy. But it makes sense. Once you're in the EU, you're free to roam the EU.

[runmikeyrun]

Originally Posted by MJ5150

Eh, these guys who come along and attack and kill people to take over the current government are no better than the government they are trying to overthrow.

-Mike

Right, and we're supplying them with weapons... another Bin Laden in the making... will we ever learn?