Can we talk about marijuana?

[Devils Advocate]

I've been supplementing my income the past couple of years teaching different subjects to young adults at risk. It's a program that basically gives them an alternative means to "earn" a piece of paper that will state that they graduated highschool.

One of the subjects I'm covering this term is alcohol and drug abuse. Marijuana is next on the list of topics, and I'd like others input regarding the subject. I'm aware of all the textbook risks of smoking marijuana, I know that marijuana effects people differently, I believe that it is a less harmful drug than alcohol, I have very mixed opinions regarding it's legalization...

I do however believe it's an incredibly harmful and addictive drug, I have a few of my own theories on it's usage, and I'd just like to kick it around talkbass a bit. For interesting discussion, and also to prepare myself for some of the resistance I'll be meeting when we start to discuss it in class.

Some of my thoughts; First and foremost, 95% (and that's not an exaggeration) of the kids that come to my classes reaking of pot do no work whatsoever, and pretty much just sit there smiling. At everything. I'm pretty sure every single one of them is failing, and it's because I have no work to grade them on, and their test grades are all below 50. Yet they'll argue that it makes them smarter and able to focus more. Simply not true.

Second, and this is my own theory that may or may not hold water. Marijuana usage was huge throughout the 60s and 70s, took a dive in the mid 80s up till around 2000, and has been on the rise since. It's currently at an all time high, especially amoungst teens. I believe this is part of a trend that's about to repeat itself. In the 60s and 70s pot was believed to be completely harmless. In the 80s people realized this was a lie, many lives fell apart (post is getting too long for details), many people wound up in rehabs because they found the "gateway drug" theory was actually true, and basically, people realized that pot wasn't so hamless. People woke up and pot usage went down significantly. Now we're back at the starting gate. Kids hear constantly in all forms of media that pot is completely harmless and believe it's todays version of "the man" that wants us to believe that it's no good. Ironicall, I believe it's "the man" that wants everone stoned out of their mind. Anyhow... I see the cycle starting again, and unfortunately believe it's going to take another 10-20 years for people to realize that this stuff really has a plethora of harmful effects. At the very least it (regular usage) keeps people from learning to deal with their emotions, and grow into fully mature, healthy adults.

I'm ready for lots of backlash here. Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

[Staccato]

Even though I smoked it (but never inhaled) in my youth, it was something that I NEVER mixed with classes, or studying.

IMO, if someone has an occasional 'like' for the stuff-it should be tempered-in terms of not interfering with work or school. If tempered, and occasionally used-it's probably not worth discussing. When I got that first job out of college, a desire to become more responsible took over. Also, I made a conscious choice to avoid buying/doing things that would raise the eye of anyone in law enforcement (choosing career/wife/child/paying bills when due, instead).

It's about choices, and many young people float along in their existence without goals, ambitions, respect for themselves, or the law.

[i_got_a_mohawk]

I think the biggest problem is the attitude of the user.

I have friends who have done pretty much nothing but smoke weed since thier early teens. Now, in thier mid-20s, all they do is smoke weed and play XBox.

However, I also have friends that smoke weed fairly regularly (not enough to fit the "stoner" category), but they have PhDs, heck, a friend of mine was a bit of a coke fiend during much of his PhD (all of which in the hard sciences, if it makes a difference).

I think it's kinda like alcohol, in that it's fine and has minimal side effects if used in moderation, but if you let it become the dominating factor in your life, you've basically lost it.

[Smokin' Toaster]

I was born in 1958, so I was a bit young in the 60's but spent my teens in the 70's. So I can offer views from that era.

Sure, it was an integral part of our entertainment/social life. If there was none to be had, the weekend was going to be a drag. We thought it was harmless, and I think the same holds true with young people today. They feel it is harmless, and they think they are indestructible.

I agree that it is demotivating, takes a toll on memory, and inhaling any by-products of combustion of ANYTHING is extremely damaging to the lungs.

As far as the gateway theory, I know plenty of people who only smoked pot. They didn't trust pills or white powder, because it could just as easily be poison or drain cleaner as the drug it was represented to be.

On the other hand, I know plenty who did go on to use other drugs. I think they would have even if pot were taken out of the equation. Personally, I drew the line and did not hang with that group. I saw the danger and the damages, and they were much more than I wanted to deal with. Taken to it's extremes, mother's milk (or baby formula), or gerber baby food could be presented as a gateway substance to heroin addiction, after all, all heroin addicts probably ingested them as well. I think those predisposed to do harder drugs will do them regardless of pot. As far as addiction, I know pot addicts, some of my ex-relatives will buy pot at the expense of paying the house note... that's addiction. But I think it's the person more than the substance. I know people that are addicted to Soft drinks and candy bars too.

Most of my friends no longer partake of pot, it seems to be something you grow out of. At a certain point, you realize that after smoking pot you're kind of zoned out, not creative, kinda stupid, and hungry. Not a good thing for middle age. And combined with the toll any smoke takes on the lungs, it's just not a good idea. Show them some pictures of smoker's lungs, and ask them if it's a good deal to do this to their lungs in order to achieve a buzz. Or for the "satisfaction" of a cigarette for that matter.

Please notice that nowhere in this post did I say that I personally ever smoked pot. If you ask, I refuse to answer under my 5th amendment rights. All I'll say is I'll gladly submit to testing today.

[Bassamatic]

Marijuana is no different than any other recreational drug in many respects.

You can use it for entertainment (in moderation) or you can use it for escape. It is the latter category that has the problems.

There are "addictive personalities" that get easily hooked on things like this. If not pot, it would be alcohol (MUCH more dangerous and destructive), cigarettes (also more destructive), gambling or harder drugs. In general it's not the pot - it is the person smoking it.

I feel that the old adage that pot is a "gateway" drug is BS. If anything alcohol is the gateway drug that gets most drug abusers started. Pot is just easier to get than the hard stuff.

[sandmangeck]

Originally Posted by Devils Advocate

I do however believe it's an incredibly harmful and addictive.

Beliefs will get you in trouble.
My experience is that a lazy stupid kid, is lazy and stupid high, or sober.
Drugs affect everyone differently.
There is a decent amount of research on both sides of the fence.
MY issue?
Why do you care what someone does with their body and mind, that doesn't really effect you?

[vincenzomauer88]

I was born in the late 80s and may just be passed the age of your class. From about 18 to 20 I went through a phase where I wanted to try it. At first it was a great complement to certain activities. So my friends and I would do it socially in the weekends. Weekends spill into weekdays and I just lost interest. It wasn't the same.these friends of mine got to smoking everyday. After awhile I think you start chasing the original high so you smoke more and get nowhere. That's where I left and quit.it was a very easy process. It's not at all addicting, at least from my experience. However, I think I honestly learned a lot from my use and it helped me. Before my use I was known for being militant and very disciplined about things. In the bands I was in I was called the band nazi.I was a cut throat and would stop at nothing to better myself or my band. If people missed practice I'd make them pay band dues.every one believed in my music so it stayed that way. Though it will sound very cliche and stereotypical stoner, smoking made me see the bigger picture. I wasn't giving love properly.I was using everyone in my life as puppets to satisfy myself. Now I realize those actions were ridiculous and have been aware of it. I'm still stern but I've learned more the value of a friend. Just like anything, everything in moderation. Smoking too much will alienate you from the world. Eating too many unhealthy foods will give you a variety health ailments. Nothing in life should be abused. Everything on moderation and give love every chance you have.that's all I know so far and this definitely turned into a huge rant. Thanks for letting me share.

[fourstringdrums]

I smoked casually a few times in my late teens, only once or twice every few months. I admit, I behaved a bit stupidly when I did it; mostly laughing at anything, and there was a time where I drank salt (literally..open spout, pour). But I think now that it was more of a case of the drug enhancing my want to fit in so I was doing anything I thought might get me a laugh.

[Unrepresented]

Originally Posted by Devils Advocate

Some of my thoughts; First and foremost, 95% (and that's not an exaggeration) of the kids that come to my classes reaking of pot do no work whatsoever, and pretty much just sit there smiling. At everything. I'm pretty sure every single one of them is failing, and it's because I have no work to grade them on, and their test grades are all below 50.

This seems like a classic case of correlation v. causation.

While I'm not suggesting that marijuana is necessarily helping these specific students, I'd be willing to bet that simply removing that one ingredient in their lives would not instantly catapult them to a higher GPA. There's a reason that people come to class high, and it's not just about marijuana.

What kind of family life do they have if they're able to smoke out before class and bring home failing grades? What social and peer groups would tolerate that of their friends? What personal expectations do they have of themselves? Clearly none of these are where they should be, and I'd be willing to bet all of those predate any heavy marijuana usage. It's a symptom, not the source.

Furthermore, it sounds like you're making assumptions about effects of marijuana based on the worst case scenarios. The studies seem to suggest that about a third to half of the students in your classrooms will have tried it, yet I'm sure that not all of those students are the students you've described. It's easy to overlook the number of students who don't live up to the stereotype because they've used it in moderation.

[MakiSupaStar]

Let's address the behavior. Drugs do not create the behavior, they encourage the behavior the user wants to exhibit. The kids your working with like to get high because that's the behavior they desire to exhibit. But the truth of the matter is that laziness is enabled and supported. So if you have a lazy student that's always getting high, the root of the problem is the parents creating the environment that encourages this type of behavior. If a kid is suddenly forced to fend for themselves the pot will quickly get dropped because they won't have as much time for it.

But with that said, there are many people who should not use it because it affects them differently than others. Just like alcohol or any other drug. This is something the person has to realize themselves. Everyone can tell them that they shouldn't use the drugs until they're blue in the face but until they realize that the drugs they're using are not making them feel the way they WANT to feel they won't change their behavior.

Marijuana is not addictive. It's the ritual and behavior that becomes routine and habit. Just like anybody else, we all fall victim to routine and habit with our behavior. But unlike other drugs, for most people (like i said its not for everyone) it's not addictive. If a person creates a routine that incorporates pot, then they will continue to do that routine until their life cannot accommodate that routine.

With that said, marijuana is not healthy. It's not good for you. Smoking anything is unhealthy. Ingesting it is better, but most of the time you're ingesting it through oils and butters that are also not good for you from a cholesterol and calorie stand point. Beer and alcohol is not healthy either. But people don't use recreational drugs to be healthy. With that said, you're increasing the unhealthiness when you introduce it's use while a child is developing. Just like any drug.

On the spectrum of drugs though, Marijuana is very mild. It's been demonized not because of its recreational or medical effect it has on people, but because other strands serve to be incredibly useful and versatile as a crop, which initially threatened three key industries - lumber, cotton, and chemicals. These industries conspired to eliminate the market for hemp and thus turning business toward the products of their own industry.

I have 25 years of anecdotal evidence to form my opinion on marijuana. I don't sit around and play video games. I'm a productive member of society holding down a career, marriage, and family. I haven't really noticed any health concerns attributed to its use. In college I used it everyday sometimes 2-3 times a day. If there was any kind of addiction to be had I would have most certainly have it. Now, I'm 40 years old, I use it once or twice a week or more. Mostly when I'm playing music. But I also play a lot of music sober too. Or with a beer or two. In fact, I have some great quality bud right now that I haven't smoked in 3 weeks. I haven't really had the notion to smoke. I get high when I feel like it, which isn't everyday. Just like I don't feel like getting drunk everyday, but if forced to choose between the two I'd rather smoke than drink. There's no hangover to ruin the next day.

[Floyd Eye]

Based on the opening post, I don't think I want to discuss marijuana with you. I will say that not everyone who uses marijuana is lazy, nor does everyone use it to excess. I am the hardest working guy I know and I am an occasional stoner.

[dukeisdog]

Originally Posted by Floyd Eye

Based on the opening post, I don't think I want to discuss marijuana with you. I will say that not everyone who uses marijuana is lazy, nor does everyone use it to excess. I am the hardest working guy I know and I am an occasional stoner.

I agree. I'm 18 years old, and work hard for my money. I'm not a complete idiot and like to smoke quite often. I can be fully functional after I smoke and I dont see what difference it makes to other people how I spend my money.

[rr5025]

Originally Posted by i_got_a_mohawk

I think the biggest problem is the attitude of the user.

I have friends who have done pretty much nothing but smoke weed since thier early teens. Now, in thier mid-20s, all they do is smoke weed and play XBox.

However, I also have friends that smoke weed fairly regularly (not enough to fit the "stoner" category), but they have PhDs, heck, a friend of mine was a bit of a coke fiend during much of his PhD (all of which in the hard sciences, if it makes a difference).

I think it's kinda like alcohol, in that it's fine and has minimal side effects if used in moderation, but if you let it become the dominating factor in your life, you've basically lost it.

Like often I agree with Mohawk. I have many friends that are working on PhDs an that smoke occasionally and are not lazy or burn outs. One of my best friends smokes fairly regularly and also works 50-60 hours a week as an engineer. People that smoke aren't predisposed to being lazy but people that are lazy are predisposed to being burnouts.

As for the gateway drug thing people that want to try the harder stuff will regardless of if they smoke or not. Buying weed just puts them in contact with the people who have or can put them in contact with people who have the hard stuff. It's the classic "when you outlaw something only criminals will have access to it" scenario that I've seen applied to other topics (such as prostitution, but that's a whole different can of worms).

All of that being said I give this thread 3 more pages...

[aborgman]

Originally Posted by rr5025

Like often I agree with Mohawk. I have many friends that are working on PhDs an that smoke occasionally and are not lazy or burn outs. One of my best friends smokes fairly regularly and also works 50-60 hours a week as an engineer. People that smoke aren't predisposed to being lazy but people that are lazy are predisposed to being burnouts.

When I worked at Intel as a design engineer on the Pentium4 CPU, I'd bet that more than 1/3 of the total engineers and a higher percentage of PhD engineers were at least occasional users.

[Turock]

Originally Posted by Devils Advocate

I do however believe it's an incredibly harmful and addictive drug,

...many lives fell apart

...many people wound up in rehabs because they found the "gateway drug" theory was actually true, and basically, people realized that pot wasn't so hamless.

...really has a plethora of harmful effects.

At the very least it (regular usage) keeps people from learning to deal with their emotions, and grow into fully mature, healthy adults.

I think that if you teach these things, your credibility will go right out the window.

[Big_Daddy]

I suppose someone may try and dispute it...
Schizophrenia. My neighbor, who's about 27, whom I've known all my life is now a complete wreck. He's been diagnosed with schizophrenia, and he's smoked pot since around the age of 12. I have no idea if he's on anything else right now, but there've been times when he's knocked on our door, claiming he's writing a book, and that we (he named every member of my family, including my dog) need to 'tell him everything' so that he can finish it.

Not just pot, but a lot of drugs in teenagers can lead to schizophrenia.

[Jim Nazium]

Originally Posted by Devils Advocate

I do however believe it's an incredibly harmful and addictive drug

So is alcohol, which is advertised on TV every day, and which I can buy at the supermarket.
So are Percodan, Oxytocin, and Morphine, which you can get with a prescription.

Originally Posted by Devils Advocate

I believe it's "the man" that wants everone stoned out of their mind.

OK, you caught us. I'm 46, I work for a corporation, and I wear a suit, so clearly I am "the man". Every Monday we have a meeting where we discuss how we can encourage everyone (except us) to be stoned out of their minds so they will not revolt against the status quo.

[Jim Nazium]

Originally Posted by Big_Daddy

I suppose someone may try and dispute it...
Schizophrenia. My neighbor, who's about 27, whom I've known all my life is now a complete wreck. He's been diagnosed with schizophrenia, and he's smoked pot since around the age of 12. I have no idea if he's on anything else right now, but there've been times when he's knocked on our door, claiming he's writing a book, and that we (he named every member of my family, including my dog) need to 'tell him everything' so that he can finish it.

Not just pot, but a lot of drugs in teenagers can lead to schizophrenia.

Or, they could have already had schizophrenia, and been trying to self-medicate to alleviate the symptoms. Once again, correlation =/= causation.

[sandmangeck]

Originally Posted by Turock

I think that if you teach these things, your credibility will go right out the window.

I think it already has.

[Unrepresented]

Originally Posted by Big_Daddy

I suppose someone may try and dispute it...
Schizophrenia. My neighbor, who's about 27, whom I've known all my life is now a complete wreck. He's been diagnosed with schizophrenia, and he's smoked pot since around the age of 12. I have no idea if he's on anything else right now, but there've been times when he's knocked on our door, claiming he's writing a book, and that we (he named every member of my family, including my dog) need to 'tell him everything' so that he can finish it.

Not just pot, but a lot of drugs in teenagers can lead to schizophrenia.

Interesting. Just did a quickie google search to verify this, and there seems to be some support for the position that heavy adolescent marijuana use can increase the risk of schizophrenia in those genetically predisposed to it.

So the moral of the story is clearly, to outlaw being genetically predisposed to schizophrenia.