Can you fight a "street cleaning" ticket, if they don't actually clean the street?

[Truktek2]

Originally Posted by tastybasslines

This seems to be the general message of the group here, however unethical and perhaps illegal the city's behavior is.

Rules are Rules eh? The city can post anything it wants, regardless of purpose, and if it's broken, just ticket the general public ad nauseam? So the city could put up street cleaning signs on EVERY street in the city, not clean them, and then ticket people for parking there during the posted hours? There does not seem to be anything wrong with that to you? What other laws could they post? Are you not concerned for your own rights?

I do agree that I probably won't get anywhere, and that I should pay the fine because it will be more trouble than it is worth etc...But if there was a reasonable process by which to fight it, I would. I'm going to look for one.

The general public is also surely entitled to clean streets, which they pay taxes for, and isn't getting done either.

And the ticket is $73. Not $20-40.

The times posted are usually a window that street sweepers would pass through. It could take only 5 minutes to clean the street but you can't park there for say 4 hours.

Do you think you should be able to park in a bus lane just because the majority of the time there is no bus in it?

It sucks when you get a ticket, but that's what pays for the services the city gives you. Paved streets, garbage collection, cops, teachers etc. Just trying to justify it. I hate getting tickets too

[yodedude2]

Originally Posted by tastybasslines

This seems to be the general message of the group here, however unethical and perhaps illegal the city's behavior is.

Rules are Rules eh? The city can post anything it wants, regardless of purpose, and if it's broken, just ticket the general public ad nauseam? So the city could put up street cleaning signs on EVERY street in the city, not clean them, and then ticket people for parking there during the posted hours? There does not seem to be anything wrong with that to you? What other laws could they post? Are you not concerned for your own rights?

....

sounds like your beef is with the city council/government, and not the city courts. perhaps you could start a petition and take it before the council?

[runmikeyrun]

Just don't pay it. I have both a parking and school zone/camera ticket, one from 2001, the other from 2004, never paid them. I've been pulled over and had to renew my driver's license and plates several times since then, never had a problem.

[6jase5]

Let's just all follow the rules that we think seem fair to us. Sound good? Hopefully nobody will park in my driveway....I better go get a sign.

[Unprofessional]

Did the big government that you've been feeding bite you on the behind? That's real sad.

[tastybasslines]

Originally Posted by Truktek2

The times posted are usually a window that street sweepers would pass through. It could take only 5 minutes to clean the street but you can't park there for say 4 hours.

Do you think you should be able to park in a bus lane just because the majority of the time there is no bus in it?

It sucks when you get a ticket, but that's what pays for the services the city gives you. Paved streets, garbage collection, cops, teachers etc. Just trying to justify it. I hate getting tickets too

Dude, they don't clean the streets at ALL. Week after week.

[jugglingfreak]

Originally Posted by tastybasslines

Dude, they don't clean the streets at ALL. Week after week.

Again, that is irrelevant. It is posted not to park there during whatever time frame.

That is all that matters. It doesn't matter if it for street sweeping or because a parade of dancing bears wanders past at that time (Or whether they show up or not)

[GregC]

Originally Posted by tastybasslines

Dude, they don't clean the streets at ALL. Week after week.

How is it that you are so certain of this? Do you have the street camera recordings or log books? Do you check the streets every day at the beginning and end of the sweeping periods?

[macaroni tony]

Info on the web is scanty on this subject, but it looks like there is a law regulating how far behind the parking enforcement person the street sweeper can be. EDIT: That was only in Sacramento. So nevermind. Still, look into all the laws and regulations pertinent to the responsibility of the city, and of yourself. If you can somehow prove that the streets are consistently not being cleaned, it may be worth a shot to fight it.

As has been mentioned, in many ways civic government relies on the fact that most people won't bother fighting tickets.

[MatticusMania]

Originally Posted by tastybasslines

First of all internet cowboy, getting a ticket has nothing to do with laziness. I never said it was not my fault, in fact I took responsibility for it in my OP.

The problem is that the regulation you are enforcing doesn't exist. If the actual street cleaning doesn't occur, you are preventing nothing. By your (and others) rationale here, you could put up ticketing signs all over the place for "violations" that also aren't actually occurring, and then tell them to stop whining.

By putting up a sign of penalty for violating street cleaning, you must also fulfill your part of the contract, which the city has not done.

Dude, you live in LA. All over the city are signs stating that you cannot park in certain places between certain times for various reasons.

Originally Posted by tastybasslines

This seems to be the general message of the group here, however unethical and perhaps illegal the city's behavior is.

The city's behavior is not illegal. The sign says not to park between certain hours and you did anyway.

Originally Posted by tastybasslines

But if there was a reasonable process by which to fight it, I would. I'm going to look for one.

There is. Your neighborhood will have to petition to have the sign removed and the parking restrictions revoked.

Originally Posted by runmikeyrun

Just don't pay it. I have both a parking and school zone/camera ticket, one from 2001, the other from 2004, never paid them. I've been pulled over and had to renew my driver's license and plates several times since then, never had a problem.

Over in CA, you'd not be able to renew your registration with outstanding parking tickets.

[pacojas]

i remember being a child who could barely read and write. i was just learning to speak and hold a spoon in my awkward hands. it was then that my mother looked me in the eye and said, "son,... you can be and do almost anything you want in your life...
but you can't fight CITY HALL"!!!

i was like,.. CITY HALL???? wat???

[tastybasslines]

Originally Posted by jugglingfreak

Again, that is irrelevant. It is posted not to park there during whatever time frame.

That is all that matters. It doesn't matter if it for street sweeping or because a parade of dancing bears wanders past at that time (Or whether they show up or not)

It is NOT irrelevant. Sometimes I wonder if people actually read posts.

By posting a sign that says you will get a ticket for parking in a zone where street cleaning is supposed to occur, the city is entering into a contract of law. Citizen follows law that allows street cleaning to happen as planned. When the city doesn't actually clean, there is nothing to prevent. The city has not been cleaning for months AFAIK. I spoke to the local business on that street (I go to Muay Thai there 5x a week), and the 3 I spoke to, not one has ever seen a street cleaning vehicle there for months. I would have to check the records to be 100% sure but I'm fairly sure.

The city cannot arbitrarily post signs without a purpose. If a zone says to not park here between 10am and 6pm, it is likely because it causes congestion problems or the like. So park there and you are causing a problem.

If I am not preventing the street cleaning from being done, because no street cleaning is being performed, then no law is being broken. Likewise, if you post a sign for dancing bears, there better be dancing bears.

I am questioning the legality of this, I believe it is a violation of law, and unethical at best. If you refer to my link posted above, you will see that even Parking Enforcement admits it is unethical.

If you are one of those guys who just came in here to tell me to sac up, then you clearly haven't read the thread, so just get out.

[MatticusMania]

Originally Posted by tastybasslines

By posting a sign that says you will get a ticket for parking in a zone where street cleaning is supposed to occur, the city is entering into a contract of law.

I dont know tasty, I think it might just be your own take that its some sort of contract. I think the sign is there to keep the streets clear for the purposes of street cleaning should the city decide to clean the streets that day. Budget cuts have likely decreased the number of street cleanings that actually occur.

Citizen follows law that allows street cleaning to happen as planned. When the city doesn't actually clean, there is nothing to prevent. The city has not been cleaning for months AFAIK.

As far as you know isnt a very concrete "knowing" though. As far as you know, unless youve been paying close attention, the street could have been swept the same day you got your ticket.

I spoke to the local business on that street (I go to Muay Thai there 5x a week), and the 3 I spoke to, not one has ever seen a street cleaning vehicle there for months. I would have to check the records to be 100% sure but I'm fairly sure.

Just because the people you spoke to havent seen one does not mean one has not come by.

The city cannot arbitrarily post signs without a purpose.

But the posted sign does have a purpose, there is nothing arbitrary about it.

If I am not preventing the street cleaning from being done, because no street cleaning is being performed, then no law is being broken.

Yes there is. The one that says you cannot park there.

I am questioning the legality of this, I believe it is a violation of law, and unethical at best. If you refer to my link posted above, you will see that even Parking Enforcement admits it is unethical.

Ethics are not what our laws are based on, unfortunately. There is nothing illegal about the city making a law, and then enforcing it.

If you are one of those guys who just came in here to tell me to sac up, then you clearly haven't read the thread, so just get out.

The fact is, you knew you were not supposed to park where you did, and you got a ticket. You can raise issue with a judge, but it will be entirely up to his/her discretion whether or not they reduce the fine, or let you off.

[Southpaw5]

Originally Posted by eyeballkid

parking tickets are not about what's "right" they are about making the city money. period.

This is spot on and the reason you can't win

[Munjibunga]

Originally Posted by Tractorr

Perhaps, if the OP subpoenaed records of the street cleaners activities (if such a log existed) and they showed that the cleaners didn't actually come at the time of ticket. Again, the cost of hiring a lawyer with expertise to make this happen is probably more than the cost of the ticket.

Unfortunately, this is how these sorts of city revenue generators work. They know that people won't spend the money to fight them. If you want this not to happen to you or anyone else go to city council meetings, talk to local reps, and call the newspaper. You would be surprised how often talking to a newspaper helps. They are always looking for a good story and parking tickets are something that everybody hates.

I don't usually think there's any reason to fight a ticket, especially if you've committed an infraction, but I like your idea. If the city isn't expending the revenue to clean the streets, then they shouldn't be taking in revenue for tickets related to street cleaning. I like the idea of going to the media. They like to make a big deal over stuff like this.

[Etienned]

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

I like the idea of going to the media. They like to make a big deal over stuff like this.

Can you recap with me here who's making a big deal out of it ?

[Munjibunga]

Originally Posted by Etienned

Can you recap with me here who's making a big deal out of it ?

Wot?

[jugglingfreak]

Originally Posted by tastybasslines

I am questioning the legality of this, I believe it is a violation of law, and unethical at best.

Matticus covered this quite elegantly.. So read his above post.


Also, here's a link to a federal study by U.S. Department of Transportation showing that raising or lowering speed limits has little to no impact on traffic speed or safety. (http://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/sl-irrel/index.html).

Why do I bring that up? By your logic, the posting speed limits would be "entering into a contract of law" so they need to have a reason. The reasons are for traffic flow and speed, safety, etc. The governments own study shows that raising or lowering speed limits makes no difference.

So, by your logic, they cannot arbitrarily post signs without a purpose (the purpose supposedly being safety and traffic control). But the speed limits do not provided the said service, "then no law is being broken".

So drive at whatever speed you want and then take that into court to explain that speed limits are pointless and let me know how that turns out.

If you are one of those guys who just came in here to tell me to sac up, then you clearly haven't read the thread, so just get out.

Fine. You have no case, but feel free to waste your time, the courts time, and your money. You will still have to pay the fine and then court cost on top of it.

Knock yourself out.

[MatticusMania]

Originally Posted by Etienned

Can you recap with me here who's making a big deal out of it ?

I dont speak for Munji, but I believe he was saying that the media likes to make a big deal out of this kind of stuff:

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

I like the idea of going to the media. They like to make a big deal over stuff like this.

[Etienned]

Originally Posted by MatticusMania

I dont speak for Munji, but I believe he was saying that the media likes to make a big deal out of this kind of stuff:

I was thinking it was more the OP than the medias... Incidentally, myself too I must admit.