The Canary in the Coal mine for big box retail?

[slobake]

I miss small independent bookstores. There a still a few around but not nearly as many. It seems Amazon is affecting the big box bookstores the same way as the big stores affected the small independents.
I never thought I would like E-readers but my niece gave me her Kindle with a lot of books alread on it. I have grown to like it. It is great for travelling, you can bring a whole library of books without filling up your suitcase.

[bluesblaster]

yes, its a brave new world out there.....again

[P. Aaron]

B & N is making some of the mistakes Borders made in that they let the populace read their inventory without paying for it.

Magazines, new ones, along with other periodicals & dog-eared books are strewn about the refreshment area in the Royal Oak branch. Now why let your product not even realize a chance at profit?

Whomever came up with this as a marketing ploy should have been ignored. A store is there to sell product not attract moochers.

[UncleFluffy]

Originally Posted by slobake

I miss small independent bookstores.

Just checking - you have been to Green Apple on 6th and Clement?

[hrodbert696]

Originally Posted by P. Aaron

B & N is making some of the mistakes Borders made in that they let the populace read their inventory without paying for it.

Magazines, new ones, along with other periodicals & dog-eared books are strewn about the refreshment area in the Royal Oak branch. Now why let your product not even realize a chance at profit?

Whomever came up with this as a marketing ploy should have been ignored. A store is there to sell product not attract moochers.

What bookstore ever forbade people to leaf through a book before buying it? What are they going to do, lock them up behind glass cases? If people want to read books without buying them, they'll go to the library. If they're in the bookstore, they're looking for something good to buy and letting them browse is good policy. Otherwise you'll drive customers away with a reputation for being cold and unwelcoming. We had a local bookstore go out of business in my hometown for this reason, a mom-and-pop. The owner was a misanthropic troll who would give you the evil eye the whole time you were browsing his shelves. The decor was lovely and the collection was interesting, but after a while nobody wanted to go in there and he had to shut down.

Clothing stores let you take outfits back to the fitting rooms, car dealerships let you put mileage on vehicles you won't buy during test drives. It's part of doing business. There are some items where personal "fit" and taste matter a lot, and if someone can't try it out first, they'll simply do without and buy nothing. That includes "does this look like a book I'm going to want to read over and over again?"

A lot of retailers are familiar with the idea of a "loss leader" - a product that you slash the price on to the point that you're taking a loss every time you sell one. It works because it draws people into the store, where they then end up buying other things you make a profit on. The same is true of having a handful of dog-eared magazines in the bookstore; you take a loss on those few, but the open and welcoming environment draws customers and you gain more than you lose. That's not what's driving bookstores out of business.

[LiquidMidnight]

Originally Posted by hrodbert696

What bookstore ever forbade people to leaf through a book before buying it? What are they going to do, lock them up behind glass cases? If people want to read books without buying them, they'll go to the library. If they're in the bookstore, they're looking for something good to buy and letting them browse is good policy. Otherwise you'll drive customers away with a reputation for being cold and unwelcoming. We had a local bookstore go out of business in my hometown for this reason, a mom-and-pop. The owner was a misanthropic troll who would give you the evil eye the whole time you were browsing his shelves. The decor was lovely and the collection was interesting, but after a while nobody wanted to go in there and he had to shut down.

Clothing stores let you take outfits back to the fitting rooms, car dealerships let you put mileage on vehicles you won't buy during test drives. It's part of doing business. There are some items where personal "fit" and taste matter a lot, and if someone can't try it out first, they'll simply do without and buy nothing. That includes "does this look like a book I'm going to want to read over and over again?"

A lot of retailers are familiar with the idea of a "loss leader" - a product that you slash the price on to the point that you're taking a loss every time you sell one. It works because it draws people into the store, where they then end up buying other things you make a profit on. The same is true of having a handful of dog-eared magazines in the bookstore; you take a loss on those few, but the open and welcoming environment draws customers and you gain more than you lose. That's not what's driving bookstores out of business.

I could be wrong, but I think that P. Aaron was referring to how many book stores have tables, comfortable chairs, and coffee shops set up that pretty much allow you to sit there for hours reading a book in the same way a library does, which then negates the need to actually purchase books that don't have "re-read value" to them.

I must admit that I always found it anti-intuitive to have a bookstore set up that way.

[matante]

I tend to just avoid big corporate stores, period. Barnes & Noble is the Walmart/McDonald's of bookstores, so why would I give them my money? Where I live there are plenty of independents who I would rather support.

[two fingers]

Well, let me offer this. A retail store pretty much can't win. People are just too picky. The only big boxes I see staying around are home improvement stores simply because of the nature of construction and repair projects.

Here's the thing. I read post after post here about Guitar Center. "Not enough selection." "The dipsticks who work there don't know anything." "Everything is setup poorly and scratched (I want it but I want a discount)." Or "I want to play every single model on Earth but I want you to bring me a NEW one from the back in the exact color I want cheaper than anyone else setup to my liking with a free new set of strings and a smile while you're at it." And, my favorite, "Corporations are evil. So I go into big box stores only when I want to try something out but I would never give them my money. I only go in there to figure out what I want and then order directly from Fred over at Bass Heaven where they aren't a huge corporation and of course not evil." Well, to have more stock, more setup guys, more knowledgeable staff, and displays of everything for you to knock around would cost a metric TON of money...... PER STORE. That would drive prices up. Then you would fuss about that too.

Meanwhile, back at the book ranch, the same thing is going on. Just read through the few posts here so far. "I want to thumb through every book on Earth, but when I'm done, I want one that hasn't been thumbed through (or get the one I thumbed through and helped to mess up for a discount)." "I tend to buy used but I like having a store to look through." "There isn't enough selection." And, of course, "Corporations are evil and I won't give them my money, because they are, of course, evil."

Short version: With people like you guys to satisfy, there' no wonder that big box stores are going the way of the Homing Pigeon. Extinction is only a heartbeat away. But, of course, you guys will blame it on corporate greed again when it happens. And you certainly won't blame yourselves for being impossible to satisfy.

I, for one, just love Walmart. I really like Barnes and Nobles. I even don't mind Guitar Center all that much. I like being able to touch stuff. And I understand the FACT that I can't have everything. So I live (happily) with the give and take that is the contrast between on-line and big box shopping. I like both. They each have their pros and cons.

(By the way, of course I don't mean every single person who posted here or in GC bashing threads. There's no need to go through and pick and choose people to point out, especially when you already get the point anyway.)

There's my two pennies.

[matante]

Originally Posted by two fingers

Well, let me offer this. A retail store pretty much can't win. People are just too picky. The only big boxes I see staying around are home improvement stores simply because of the nature of construction and repair projects.

Here's the thing. I read post after post here about Guitar Center. "Not enough selection." "The dipsticks who work there don't know anything." "Everything is setup poorly and scratched (I want it but I want a discount)." Or "I want to play every single model on Earth but I want you to bring me a NEW one from the back in the exact color I want cheaper than anyone else setup to my liking with a free new set of strings and a smile while you're at it." And, my favorite, "Corporations are evil. So I go into big box stores only when I want to try something out but I would never give them my money. I only go in there to figure out what I want and then order directly from Fred over at Bass Heaven where they aren't a huge corporation and of course not evil." Well, to have more stock, more setup guys, more knowledgeable staff, and displays of everything for you to knock around would cost a metric TON of money...... PER STORE. That would drive prices up. Then you would fuss about that too.

Meanwhile, back at the book ranch, the same thing is going on. Just read through the few posts here so far. "I want to thumb through every book on Earth, but when I'm done, I want one that hasn't been thumbed through (or get the one I thumbed through and helped to mess up for a discount)." "I tend to buy used but I like having a store to look through." "There isn't enough selection." And, of course, "Corporations are evil and I won't give them my money, because they are, of course, evil."

Short version: With people like you guys to satisfy, there' no wonder that big box stores are going the way of the Homing Pigeon. Extinction is only a heartbeat away. But, of course, you guys will blame it on corporate greed again when it happens. And you certainly won't blame yourselves for being impossible to satisfy.

I, for one, just love Walmart. I really like Barnes and Nobles. I even don't mind Guitar Center all that much. I like being able to touch stuff. And I understand the FACT that I can't have everything. So I live (happily) with the give and take that is the contrast between on-line and big box shopping. I like both. They each have their pros and cons.

(By the way, of course I don't mean every single person who posted here or in GC bashing threads. There's no need to go through and pick and choose people to point out, especially when you already get the point anyway.)

There's my two pennies.

I don't think anyone needs to be "blamed" for the loss of big box stores. I see the loss of B&N as a good thing. It's nothing to do with corporations being evil, and everything to do with franchise stores being unattractive. I don't like any business where one model is setup and then replicated a thousand times in a thousand cities. I find that disgustingly ugly, just like tract housing. If you like that fine. I don't. And I'll be the last one to shed a tear if Walmart/Target/Best Buy go out of business.

[two fingers]

Originally Posted by matante

I don't think anyone needs to be "blamed" for the loss of big box stores. I see the loss of B&N as a good thing. It's nothing to do with corporations being evil, and everything to do with franchise stores being unattractive. I don't like any business where one model is setup and then replicated a thousand times in a thousand cities. I find that disgustingly ugly, just like tract housing. If you like that fine. I don't. And I'll be the last one to shed a tear if Walmart/Target/Best Buy go out of business.

If they set them all up differently, it would cost more money. And if it costs THEM more money, it costs YOU more money to buy from them.

Not to mention, although I totally respect your right to your opinion, it seems utterly ridiculous for you to be offended at how "digustingly ugly" stores that you will never walk into are. How absurd it is for you to live in (for instance) Seattle, and give a total crap about what the store in Fort worth Texas looks like........ that you will never EVER go into! That's just about the silliest thing I have read in a while, and shares absolutely nothing in common with tract housing..... that can all be seen from the SAME VANTAGE POINT.

This is another perfect example of how the masses simply can not be satisfied. Never mind that Walmart saves millions of lower income people a lot of money. But I guess that doesn't matter either...... because they all look the same.... and that's.......... ugly..... and stuff.

Ha! It just never ceases to amaze me.

[matante]

Originally Posted by two fingers

If they set them all up differently, it would cost more money. And if it costs THEM more money, it costs YOU more money to buy from them.

Not to mention, although I totally respect your right to your opinion, it seems utterly ridiculous for you to be offended at how "digustingly ugly" stores that you will never walk into are. How absurd it is for you to live in (for instance) Seattle, and give a total crap about what the store in Fort worth Texas looks like........ that you will never EVER go into! That's just about the silliest thing I have read in a while, and shares absolutely nothing in common with tract housing..... that can all be seen from the SAME VANTAGE POINT.

This is another perfect example of how the masses simply can not be satisfied. Never mind that Walmart saves millions of lower income people a lot of money. But I guess that doesn't matter either...... because they all look the same.... and that's.......... ugly..... and stuff.

Ha! It just never ceases to amaze me.

If Walmart wanted to put a store next door to the Eiffel Tower, the Parisians would rightfully protest. I live in a cool neighborhood in a pretty cool city and if they wanted to put a Walmart or Best Buy or whatever kind of store in my neighborhood I would rightfully protest and not shop there. I don't see why you find that odd.

[two fingers]

Originally Posted by matante

If Walmart wanted to put a store next door to the Eiffel Tower, the Parisians would rightfully protest. I live in a cool neighborhood in a pretty cool city and if they wanted to put a Walmart or Best Buy or whatever kind of store in my neighborhood I would rightfully protest and not shop there. I don't see why you find that odd.

Well, that's not odd at all. Why the difference? Because the proposed Walmart in your hip little neighborhood affects YOU. What's silly is that you think Walmarts that are nowhere near you, and that you will never see, should not exist because they are "disgustingly ugly". Have you ever been to the one in Cary NC? It's more chic than most Starbuck's. If you don't want one in YOUR neighborhood, do what you must. But putting down the whole company because the ones you can't see, and will NEVER see, are "disgustingly ugly" is pretty ridiculous. That's like hating windmills, and being against their implementation in coastal areas, and living nowhere near the coast.

Wow. Another TB thread running off the tracks. And I helped it in doing so.

Sorry.

[matante]

Originally Posted by two fingers

Have you ever been to the one in Cary NC? It's more chic than most Starbuck's.

[UncleFluffy]

Originally Posted by two fingers

"I tend to buy used but I like having a store to look through."

As the only person who mentioned used books, I'm guessing that this is meant as a summary of my post. If so, I must have done a even worse job of writing than usual.

I don't "tend to buy used" - when I know what I want I generally grab books from Amazon for expediency's sake. A trip to the used book store for me is entertainment, like a trip to the movies. I get to browse around, enjoy the smell and the atmosphere, find all sorts of interesting accidental discoveries and come out with as much treasure as my arms can carry. Half of which will get read once then donated or sold back to the store for pennies.

Regular book stores aren't fun in that way, so I don't bother with them. If they offered a comparable interesting experience, maybe I would.

[two fingers]

My apologies. I never intended any of my remarks to summarize any one person's post. Rather, they were intended to cover more of a broad range of attitudes towards big companies in general, both those mentioned specifically here, and those not covered by this particular thread. Both here, and in the 3D world, I hear/read people say all the time that they use big box stores as more of a library in which to browse (more often when referring to GC, because this is after all a bass forum). They complain about the big box stores, but love to use them as reference material to determine what to buy somewhere else, usually used. And then when the "big corporate evil CEO types" close down the store, they complain AGAIN because the world has become profit driven. I would argue that they (the complainers) were part of the problem to begin with. Never satisfied, and always using those stores for free information/services, they then love to bemoan capitalism in general for not catering to their every whim.

[UncleFluffy]

I think there's some truth in what you're saying. Most people forget that, to a rough approximation, corporations are just a reflection of their customers' desires.

There's a quote something along the lines of "In a democracy, people get the government they deserve". You could equally say "In a free market, people get the corporations they pay for".

[two fingers]

Originally Posted by UncleFluffy

I think there's some truth in what you're saying. Most people forget that, to a rough approximation, corporations are just a reflection of their customers' desires.

There's a quote something along the lines of "In a democracy, people get the government they deserve". You could equally say "In a free market, people get the corporations they pay for".

Bingo. And if you never BOUGHT anything from said corporation, but used their services, it's as though you didn't "vote". So you don't get to complain when their prices go up, or they shut down altogether. It's the same with politics. I don't care who you vote for, but if you DON'T vote, you don't get to complain, because you didn't participate.

[UncleFluffy]

Originally Posted by two fingers

I don't care who you vote for, but if you DON'T vote, you don't get to complain, because you didn't participate.

While I largely agree with you on the corporation part, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one unless there's a "none of the above" option on the ballot. If someone comes up to you and says "do you want a punch in the face or a kick in the balls?" and you don't reply is it reasonable to say "don't complain" when they punch you?

(you can choose not to do business with a corporation, but a government is a monopoly)

[Ziltoid]

One of the small used books and vinyls store I used to frequent just closed. Luckily there's still a good amount left but it's still sad.

[Ziltoid]

Originally Posted by UncleFluffy

While I largely agree with you on the corporation part, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one unless there's a "none of the above" option on the ballot. If someone comes up to you and says "do you want a punch in the face or a kick in the balls?" and you don't reply is it reasonable to say "don't complain" when they punch you?

(you can choose not to do business with a corporation, but a government is a monopoly)

Check all the options and do a nice drawing. Your vote will be cancelled and it speaks louder than simply not voting.