Charter Schools: Good idea or evil?

[Stinsok]

According to the Alabama Education Association, they are bad. Do your kids attend one?

[MakiSupaStar]

Wow. Your question is right in my head right now. I'm thinking about starting one. I really think you can't label all of them good and all of them bad. You really have to look at the students they serve, their performance, and whether or not the parents that sent their children there are happy with the results. Whether there existence is good or bad is irrelevant. You're going to see more of them.

[Stinsok]

The AEA is currently running an anti Charter School ad campaign. The AEA is a very powerful teacher's union and their motive for opposition is suspect to me. I don't have a dog in that fight because my kids are almost out of gub'ment school.

[bassrique]

More competition, choice and accountability please. Enough said before politics enters thread. I'm out.

[invader3k]

Usually if a teacher's union is against something, I'm for it. I say this as someone who's spouse is a member of a teacher's union.

[smperry]

Originally Posted by MakiSupaStar

Wow. Your question is right in my head right now. I'm thinking about starting one. I really think you can't label all of them good and all of them bad. You really have to look at the students they serve, their performance, and whether or not the parents that sent their children there are happy with the results. Whether there existence is good or bad is irrelevant. You're going to see more of them.

I've done a good amount of research on charter schools (Ph.D. in Education Administration & Policy and once worked in the former NYC Board of Education) and agree entirely with Maki. There are very effective ones and others that are not performing well.

Originally Posted by bassrique

More competition, choice and accountability please. Enough said before politics enters thread. I'm out.

Charter schools themselves typically have less accountability initially and more flexibility with how they spend money. Choice is not a given either, since schools can only house so many students and transportation/location is an issue. Market forces don't necessarily bring great schools to troubled areas, just like there might not be (for example) banks or fine restaurants in some neighborhoods. Unfortunately and in general, charters have not leveraged change in school systems as was hoped (by that, I mean having charters as an option for parents doesn't necessarily make the traditional schools improve out of fear of losing students), but they can still be "pockets of excellence" in otherwise low performing school districts. There are certainly exceptions to these generalities though. IME

[lowendfriend]

The AMSA Charter School in Marlboro, MA is an absolutely AWESOME school and I'm just disappointed that it was not available when my kids were going thru.

Competition, baby! It's the way of the business world. Highly relevant to schools.

In Rhode Island, they fired an entire school because the teachers there would not endorse an improvement program. Folks get set in their ways and are unwilling to believe that any way can be better. They are usually dead wrong. A sense of entitlement sets in due to the bureaucracy and lack of real leadership and that's the death knell of innovation and open-minded thinking.

Go Charter Schools!!

[thumpbass1]

Horror writer Bentley Little did quite the fun read, dealing with a charter school gone bad, in his book 'The Academy'.
Other than that, I support the notion of charter shools being a potential solution in some communities.

[LiquidMidnight]

Originally Posted by MakiSupaStar

Wow. Your question is right in my head right now. I'm thinking about starting one. I really think you can't label all of them good and all of them bad. You really have to look at the students they serve, their performance, and whether or not the parents that sent their children there are happy with the results. Whether there existence is good or bad is irrelevant. You're going to see more of them.

Originally Posted by smperry

I've done a good amount of research on charter schools (Ph.D. in Education Administration & Policy and once worked in the former NYC Board of Education) and agree entirely with Maki. There are very effective ones and others that are not performing well.

Charter schools themselves typically have less accountability initially and more flexibility with how they spend money. Choice is not a given either, since schools can only house so many students and transportation/location is an issue. Market forces don't necessarily bring great schools to troubled areas, just like there might not be (for example) banks or fine restaurants in some neighborhoods. Unfortunately and in general, charters have not leveraged change in school systems as was hoped (by that, I mean having charters as an option for parents doesn't necessarily make the traditional schools improve out of fear of losing students), but they can still be "pockets of excellence" in otherwise low performing school districts. There are certainly exceptions to these generalities though. IME

Thankfully we got two people with backgrounds in education already to comment and give an educated (no pun intended) opinion about the matter. Education discussions always drive me nuts, because inevitably, people who have never been teachers, never been school administrators, or don't have "D.ed" behind their names usually run at the mouth about things they have no idea about what they're talking about. I'm not saying that to kill discussion here, but it always drives me nuts when people have some simple answer like, "Get more accountability," "Get rid of the teacher's union," or "get rid of tenure," because they're ignorance on education is only overshadowed by their ignorance on human resources, labor relations, non-profit management, and educational leadership.

...I'm not in education (though my girlfriend and her sister are, both at the university and elementary levels); I just hate it when people talk about things they know squat about, and education always seems to be one of those subjects upon which everyone's an expert. I'm an advocate of Socratic statement that all I know is that I don't know anything.

With that said, I'm not saying the AEA is right. I'm just saying to have a thoughtful discussion.

[Pilgrim]

Some are darn good - some are started by people with political reasons to do so, which IMO is a perversion of the purpose of schools.

No blanket statement is possible. Established school districts dislike charters (among other reasons) because they have to share tax funding with them.

[mike_v_s]

Originally Posted by LiquidMidnight

Thankfully we got two people with backgrounds in education already to comment and give an educated (no pun intended) opinion about the matter. Education discussions always drive me nuts, because inevitably, people who have never been teachers, never been school administrators, or don't have "D.ed" behind their names usually run at the mouth about things they have no idea about what they're talking about.

I think you might be forgetting another facet of education: the end user(s).

Despite their lack of a formal education on the subject, surely their real world experience gives them at least a modicum of insight, hmm? I'd go as far as to say their comments carry just as much weight as those whose a opinions you appear to value more. To be clear: their experiences (and opinions formed from those experiences) with charter schools will ultimately determine their success.

I'm not saying that to kill discussion here, but it always drives me nuts when people have some simple answer like, "Get more accountability," "Get rid of the teacher's union," or "get rid of tenure," because they're ignorance on education is only overshadowed by their ignorance on human resources, labor relations, non-profit management, and educational leadership.

Don't have kids, do you? That's the kind of statement that someone who is (pardon the term) ignorant on that end of a school system would make.

As to knowledge on human resources, labor relations, etc, I think you might be very surprised how much real world experience in any one of a variety of seemingly unrelated fields exposes a person to those subjects to the point of being knowledgeable enough to comment, even if you're not a fan of the wording.

That stated, I send my kids to private schools because they allow my ignorance to carry more weight thanks to the checks I write.

Mike

[MakiSupaStar]

mike_v_s is right. Everyone has an opinion in this conversation. People that have gone through the system, and parents with their kids in the system (even if they opted out and put their kids in private schools). Education is a topic that everyone has a stake in.

[DigMe]

I agree with Maki and smperry. You simply cannot say "they're good" or "they're bad" because just like all other types of schools there are some that have been amazing and some that have been horrendous.

Regarding unions - not a fan. I joined an association of teaching professionals simply for the legal backing should anything ever happen but they do not dictate to me what I should do or think nor can they dictate to me whether or not I should go on strike, etc... Maybe there is a need for them in other places but here in Texas with all the independend school districts if you don't like what's going on with your job and you can't change it then the chances are that you can go find a new job at a neighboring district with a different situation.

bc

[Pilgrim]

Maki is on target. Unfortunately many people think that there are simple, one-size-fits-all solutions to solving problems with human needs and behavior. Humans and their cultures are highly complex, so one solution does not fit all. Simple solutions to society's problems do not work.

[mike_v_s]

Originally Posted by MakiSupaStar

mike_v_s is right. Everyone has an opinion in this conversation. People that have gone through the system, and parents with their kids in the system (even if they opted out and put their kids in private schools). Education is a topic that everyone has a stake in.

I haven't fully opted out, really. At this point, we've chosen private for their grade school only. Among other reasons, I visited the K-3 that they would have attended and saw a few things with the principal that caused me to reconsider. My impressions were echoed by parents who had sent their kids there.

A previous job had me in every single classroom in my area for grades 1-4, as well as dealing directly with each schools' administration. There were both public and private schools I was very impressed with and some that, while not horrible by any stretch, were not my first, second or third choices. Given what school my kids would have to attend if we went public, we decided to go private for grades K-8.

I've been asking around to get an impression of the private high school closest to me and I'm not getting the warm fuzzies. When the time comes, we might switch back.

Mike

[Joe Nerve]

Originally Posted by mike_v_s

Despite their lack of a formal education on the subject, surely their real world experience gives them at least a modicum of insight, hmm? I'd go as far as to say their comments carry just as much weight as those whose a opinions you appear to value more. To be clear: their experiences (and opinions formed from those experiences) with charter schools will ultimately determine their success.

Mike

Sorry, but I disagree. Mayor Bloomberg has lots to say about what's working and what's not working, as do parents and hoards of other people who "think" they know what's going on, but trust me, you don't know what's going on until you're inside the system. In NY, some pretty horrible things are happening. Stats are everything. And people believe them. Unfortunately what they don't see is that schools are doing everything in their power to change those stats, and guess what - it has incredibly little to do with student or teacher performance. Who do you think grades regents? Who do you think is ultimately responsible for the numbers and stats a school puts out? The people who's jobs are at stake, that's who. Teens are getting pushed out of Highschools over here like you wouldn't believe. And teachers are raising their grades, because they have to if they don't want their $90,000 worth of student loans to go out the window with their jobs. Fear is an incredible motivator.

I work in a school (for 15 years as a sub) that the mayor is going to close and turn into a charter school because of a poor graduation rate. I've been in many schools in NY and I am absolutely certain that this one is one of the very best. Statistically however we have a low 4 year graduation rate. Why? Because we have the highest ESL population of any HS around and they sometimes take longer to graduate, and we won't do them the disservice of just pushing them out the door. But that doesn't matter.

Arrgh! I've got a lot I could say but couldn't so without getting real political. All I'll say is don't believe what you're reading, and don't believe statistics. Believe the people who are in shcools, teaching, and and actually see what these kids are doing and how they're progressing.

Teachers are also blamed (what they call acountability) for classes where 20% of the kids show up, and only half of them pass. Is that the teachers fault? I know a lot of you will say yes, but I promise you if you spent a few months in a school teaching you'd answer differently. It's easy to talk from a comfortable chair when one has no experience and has just read a lot of BS in newspapers. I just read in a book that had a letter from a person in Iraq that he'd love to see Rush Limbaugh spend 2 days on tours of duty in Iraq, hear bombs all day, see a friend get blown to pieces, and then go and spill the diatribe he does. Yeah, this is different, but a lot of it comes from the same place - people with a lot of money and power who THINK they know what they're talking about and are ultimately really out for their own gains only. And unfortunatley their the ones who get heard most because they have the most power, and the most money.

[Radical Edward]

I went to public schools for a quite a while, but then I went to a charter school, and I loved it. I stayed there for 4 years, I think. But, then they switched principals and then the school pretty much turned into a public school, and it sucked. So,.. they're kind of hit or miss, I guess, in my opinion.

[mike_v_s]

Originally Posted by Joe Nerve

Sorry, but I disagree. (SNIP)

I'm not saying that those who are directly plugged into the system don't have a unique view of the education system. I'm saying that the product that system spits out is normally tied to one, if not two adults who have watched that product go from point A to point B (hopefully "B" being graduation) and, having participated in said system for up to 13 years, will have a fairly informed opinion of that particular aspect of it. As far as the statistics, etc, you're a bit misinformed if you think that kind of stuff is unknown to the general public.

Mike

[SpamBot]

I don't like the idea of charter schools taking money away from cash-strapped public schools, but I'm not too knowledgeable on the subject so I won't judge prematurely. Can anyone offer any insight on the funding side of the debate?

[Jim Campbell]

Originally Posted by Joe Nerve

Sorry, but I disagree. Mayor Bloomberg has lots to say about what's working and what's not working, as do parents and hoards of other people who "think" they know what's going on, but trust me, you don't know what's going on until you're inside the system. In NY, some pretty horrible things are happening. Stats are everything. And people believe them. Unfortunately what they don't see is that schools are doing everything in their power to change those stats, and guess what - it has incredibly little to do with student or teacher performance. Who do you think grades regents? Who do you think is ultimately responsible for the numbers and stats a school puts out? The people who's jobs are at stake, that's who. Teens are getting pushed out of Highschools over here like you wouldn't believe. And teachers are raising their grades, because they have to if they don't want their $90,000 worth of student loans to go out the window with their jobs. Fear is an incredible motivator.

I work in a school (for 15 years as a sub) that the mayor is going to close and turn into a charter school because of a poor graduation rate. I've been in many schools in NY and I am absolutely certain that this one is one of the very best. Statistically however we have a low 4 year graduation rate. Why? Because we have the highest ESL population of any HS around and they sometimes take longer to graduate, and we won't do them the disservice of just pushing them out the door. But that doesn't matter.

Arrgh! I've got a lot I could say but couldn't so without getting real political. All I'll say is don't believe what you're reading, and don't believe statistics. Believe the people who are in shcools, teaching, and and actually see what these kids are doing and how they're progressing.

Teachers are also blamed (what they call acountability) for classes where 20% of the kids show up, and only half of them pass. Is that the teachers fault? I know a lot of you will say yes, but I promise you if you spent a few months in a school teaching you'd answer differently. It's easy to talk from a comfortable chair when one has no experience and has just read a lot of BS in newspapers. I just read in a book that had a letter from a person in Iraq that he'd love to see Rush Limbaugh spend 2 days on tours of duty in Iraq, hear bombs all day, see a friend get blown to pieces, and then go and spill the diatribe he does. Yeah, this is different, but a lot of it comes from the same place - people with a lot of money and power who THINK they know what they're talking about and are ultimately really out for their own gains only. And unfortunatley their the ones who get heard most because they have the most power, and the most money.

i see a lot of similarity here....our public schools have been watered down to the point where private ed is the better option ....we now spend so much of the budget trying to satisfy everyone that no one is getting much of an education any more....in either official language