College = High Paying Job - the evidence against!

[Bruce Lindfield]

So I read this article yesterday in the Guardian :

1 in 3 graduates not repaying student loans

A third of students who started university since fees were introduced in 1998 are earning too little to make repayments on their loans, ministers have admitted.

Nearly 400,000 graduates have not made repayments on their loans up to seven years after they graduated because they are not yet earning above the £15,000 threshold. It comes amid concerns that graduates now face the toughest time in a generation as firms cut down on recruitment in the credit crunch.

Official figures, released in response to a parliamentary question from the Liberal Democrats, suggest that the financial return on the £20,000 debt most students graduate with is slow to arrive. Ministers claim graduates earn up to £100,000 more over their lifetime, but figures show that up to seven years after graduating a third are not yet making repayments.

Of the 1,237,300 students who still had money outstanding on loans taken out since fees were introduced, 384,300 had not begun repaying the loans at all.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2008...ance.education


So it seem that for 1 in 3 students - taking Britain as a very large sample - college/university has no impact on how much money they earn...?

[Bruce Lindfield]

Just to clarify - the average salary in the UK is about £22k p.a.

What the government stats above are showing is that 1 in 3 students earned less than £15k p.a. for the 7 years after they graduated!!

[Mark Latimour]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

Just to clarify - the average salary in the UK is about £22k p.a.

What the government stats above are showing is that 1 in 3 students earned less than £15k p.a. for the 7 years after they graduated!!

That's not quite what it says.

Firstly, you'd need to look at the number that have graduated within the last one or two years. How big is that as a proportion? Did they take a year off voluntarily? Did they seek active employment? Many people take a year off after graduating to travel.

Secondly, you'd need to look at what proportion of that 1/3 actively sought employment after they took out the loan. What if it was only 1/2? Then its 1/6 of the total sample size that is a significant change.

Thirdly, its "up to 7 years". There may be a very low proportion in the 6-7 year bracket and it heavily weighted at the front end.

All in all, for someone who works with statistics, i'd give the quoted post a fail!

[standupright]

thanks for the completely ambiguous article / statement

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Mark Latimour

That's not quite what it says.

Firstly, you'd need to look at the number that have graduated within the last one or two years. How big is that as a proportion? Did they take a year off voluntarily? Did they seek active employment? Many people take a year off after graduating to travel.

Secondly, you'd need to look at what proportion of that 1/3 actively sought employment after they took out the loan. What if it was only 1/2? Then its 1/6 of the total sample size that is a significant change.

Thirdly, its "up to 7 years". There may be a very low proportion in the 6-7 year bracket and it heavily weighted at the front end.

All in all, for someone who works with statistics, i'd give the quoted post a fail!

Well personally - I find it shocking that any graduates are earning less than £15k per year ...

But those points come straight from the Guardian newpaper - so maybe you ought to write to them and point that out!!

I was just clarifying the implications for people who may not be familar with UK currency and numbers - but there is no arguing with the actual facts - whatever they might have been doing - they haven't earned more than £15k.

I made no conclusions - simply presented the actual facts - there's no argument about them!


(PS - statistically speaking - 1.24 million is a very large sample!! )

[i_got_a_mohawk]

It is just the sad truth of the matter, worst job I have seen advertised was last year (maybe the year before), for a graduate with a chemistry or biochemistry degree. Full time and the salary was £11K :|

Granted most are about £17-£18K (starting) in my field

[Mark Latimour]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

I made no conclusions - simply presented the actual facts - there's no argument about them!

I was commenting about this:

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

What the government stats above are showing is that 1 in 3 students earned less than £15k p.a. for the 7 years after they graduated!!

It's not really saying its for the 7 years after they graduated, its up to 7 years. As I said, it doesn't say whether the majority are in the 1-2 year range (or not) or whether those didn't earn over £15k or simply, didn't earn or earned overseas (which could be by choice). For exampe, as far as the Australia government's statistics are concerned, I am not paying back my student loan, so 6 years after graduating, I am earning less than $25,000AUS per year. Of course, that's not actually the case.

(PS - statistically speaking - 1.24 million is a very large sample!! )

I don't think I said, or implied, it wasn't.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Well - we have a sample of 1.34 million students who have graduated from UK universities in the last 7 years and 384,300 had not begun repaying their loans - which is what the Liberal Democrat party are saying, points to low earnings amongst graduates..?

I think that a few may have been able to get away without paying - although the Student Loan body are notoriously dogged - but even so there must be large numbers of graduates, who are just not seeing any benefits from their education, in terms of higher earnings.

I see this as an argument for free Grants for all - which is what happened when I went and which means that poorer families are not penalised by a notional assumption that a graduate will get their "investment" back...

[Mark Latimour]

Another thing to consider is the number of students who went on to do a second degree or further education following their graduation from a UK universtiy. For example, a student doing law conversion would graduate, but then need at least one or two years to do the conversion course before earning money. This would show up as "not having repaid within the first 2 years" and be included in those stats even though they student chose not to earn. Likewise other professionals like doctors, actuaries etc who have to do further education. I think the statistics are being used to show something they do not really show - there are a lot of reasons why large numbers of students may not pay back loans immeidiately that may not be linked to low initial graduate earnings.

[Bruce Lindfield]

I think you should write to the Liberal Democrat party and the Guardian to tell them!!

[Barkless Dog]

Obviously we have te same problem here. I know two kids who went to expensive schools and had majors which were pretty much low paying pr non existent careers, sociology & anthropology.

One works as a short order cook and owes now around $300,000 since he has graduated, about 5 years ago (never made a payment, keeps deferring them). He will never get out from under that dept.

The other kid, does not know what he wants to do and lives with his parents, refusing to grow up.

The Peter Pan Generation

/www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/05/21/f-vp-handler.html

I know several people who skipped or did not finish college and are quite wealthy, one started an electronics company which got bought by Motorola$$$$$$$, another just had a work hard ethic and became a partner of a successful design firm. Neither had or needed a degree.

There is no set road to success, but first you have to want it and work very hard for it.

[DigMe]

Before we jump to any conclusions I think we should see what The Daily Mail has to say about this issue:

Just as I suspected.


bc

[Bruce Lindfield]

Oh and these people :

"One in three graduates earns under £15K "

http://www.inthenews.co.uk/money/new...k-$1243768.htm




http://www.money.co.uk/article/10016...ing-repaid.htm
According to new official figures around one-third of students who have left university since the loans were introduced in 1998 are not yet making repayments, the Guardian reports. This is because the group - numbering around 400,000 people - are not earning enough money for automatic student loan payments to be levied from their paycheques.

etc. etc.

[threshar]

Just because you have a college degree does not mean you are smart. I've interviewed enough people to know that a degree means next to nothing. They may have graduated with a high gpa, but when questioned they come up empty.

[blizzard]

I think with anything it all comes down to what you chose to major in. If you do something like Medicine, Law, Engineering you are probably going to be earning well above 15k. However if you chose something like Visual Arts, pure Maths... well good luck to you.

[Bruce Lindfield]

I know somebody who did a Media & Information Studies degree a few years ago and has been working in Burger King, since...

[Visirale]

Avoiding student loans to begin with goes a long way.

[john turner]

wow, is this turning political? do i see something about a 'liberal democrat party'? i better not.

[Mark Latimour]

Originally Posted by john turner

wow, is this turning political? do i see something about a 'liberal democrat party'? i better not.

FWIW its the "Liberal Democrat Party" (one of the minor parties in the UK - well, the third largest, but like the US its pretty much a two horse race) who made the original comment about low graduate salaries after requesting information during question time. Its not really a political issue, just an issue brought up by a particular party and there is no political debate per se. I think it's just Bruce naming the source (as a noun) rather than using it "small caps" as an adjective.

[L-A]

Come to Québec. You can be out of the University with no debt, all on a part-time job