Is a College Degree Absolutely Necessary

[greekorican]

I'll be graduating in June, and everyone I talk to says that if you don't get atleast Bachelor's Degree, you are not going to go anywhere. Obviously, going to college is beneficial, but I have alot of criticism about how people view college. I'm currently just finished college stuff, my intended major is mechanical engineering. To be honest, engineering does sound incredibly boring, but I suppose that is the only thing I have any interest in studying at college.

A college degree does not automatically make you smart. You could be an idiot, spend all of your college years partying, and barely scrape by with C's. From what everyone has told me about how necessary it is to go to college, it seems like an idiot with a college degree will get hired over someone intelligent and hard-working simply because of a piece of paper. IMO, that is not right.

Most kids I know are expecting college to be a huge party. I'm sure college would sound much more fun if Mommy and Daddy payed to send me to California, and gave me spending money. I will be paying my own tuition, and living at home until I can make enough money to move out. Not exactly looking forward to the next couple of years.

Anyway, the reason I brought this up is that I'm having a dilemma. I'm a smart kid, and could probably do well in college. However, the jobs I'm actually interested in are trades. I have considered being an auto mechanic. I'm kind of interested in carpentry, woodworking, and metal-working/welding. Call me strange, but I like this kind of work. I have a knack for building and fixing things. Unfortunately alot of trades don't get paid very well, so I need to choose wisely.

Just about my entire family is dead against this. I've got several aunts that are teachers, and a few engineers in the family. I have my grandmother who threatens me with hauntings when she dies if I don't go to college. My dad has no problem with me doing this kind of work, as long as I get a 4 year degree first, which is not at all logical. If I'm doing trade-work, I'm gonna need training in that trade, not a college degree. So basically I'm deciding between doing something I'm interested in and being guilted by everybody, or going along with everyone's BS. I might enjoy engineering, but being blackmailed and threatened into college since I was 5 years old has had the exact opposite effect. Going to college because I'm forced to is setting me up to be unhappy.

Am I absolutely insane for considering an alternative to college, and thinking that a college degree has become extremely overrated?

I'm also interested in hearing from some engineers, maybe you can help me out. Maybe suggest a field in engineering based on the trades I'm interested in? I'm a hands-on type of person, and hate the idea of spending all day at work at my desk.

[BartmanPDX]

Sounds like a college degree might not be right for you. It's not for everyone, and you are correct that you do not need one to be smart.

A college degree is, however, necessary for employment in certain positions. There are reasons for this, including demonstrating a commitment to yourself and a long-term, difficult project.

Not all colleges are easy street, either. Some are, some aren't.

FWIW, college for me was the most difficult and rewarding time of my life even though I don't use any of what I learned in my job (stay-at-home dad for a disabled child). But I went to a very challenging college. I'd do it all over again in a minute.

[casualmadness]

I went to college and did it simply because I was naive enough to believe that a degree was a guarantee that I would always be able to find a job. Problem was, I came from an uneducated family who didn't really know how to steer me so I had no one to turn to for advice. As I said; I was terribly naive. Once I graduated, I learned quickly that a BS is just that-BS. Now, having said that; I would absolutely do it again. I do not for one second regret earning a degree. I do, however, regret graduate school. It is wildly expensive and (for me at least ) a huge waste of time and energy. The problem is; without actual experience, a degree is nothing more than a very expensive piece of paper.
I would say, follow your own road. If you want to learn a trade, do it. It's your life, not your parents, grandparents, aunt's, etc. Get into a trade. Learn to be a carpenter. You said yourself, your parents aren't footing the bill for school. So unless they want to pony up for tuition, don't pursue their dreams. The good news is; college isn't going anywhere and you are young. So get out in the world and learn a trade. And a few years from now, if you decide that you want to go to college after all, you will have that option.

[mike_v_s]

Originally Posted by greekorican

From what everyone has told me about how necessary it is to go to college, it seems like an idiot with a college degree will get hired over someone intelligent and hard-working simply because of a piece of paper. IMO, that is not right.

Well, a person with a degree has a somewhat universally accepted way of demonstrating that they can start and finish a long and somewhat complicated undertaking. Regardless of the courses taken and using the example of two 23 year olds applying for a job with similar resumes, having a college degree gives an employer more of a window into a candidate than the other guy who is simply testifying that he's intelligent and hard-working.

Not right? Doesn't matter much. Put yourself in the place of the interviewer. He doesn't have long or much to go by when making a decision about his company's most valuable asset. Every little bit helps.

ike

[stratovani]

Originally Posted by greekorican

Just about my entire family is dead against this. I've got several aunts that are teachers, and a few engineers in the family. I have my grandmother who threatens me with hauntings when she dies if I don't go to college. My dad has no problem with me doing this kind of work, as long as I get a 4 year degree first, which is not at all logical. If I'm doing trade-work, I'm gonna need training in that trade, not a college degree. So basically I'm deciding between doing something I'm interested in and being guilted by everybody, or going along with everyone's BS. I might enjoy engineering, but being blackmailed and threatened into college since I was 5 years old has had the exact opposite effect. Going to college because I'm forced to is setting me up to be unhappy.

How old are you? If you're over 18, then it's YOUR decision, not theirs. And even if you're not over 18, it's your life, and it's still your decision. You do what makes you happy. Your parents, uncles and aunts, and grandparents have lived, or are living, their lives, and they obviously can't live your life for you. It's OK for them to give you advice, but to say that they're going to haunt you from the Other Side is a bit over the top, in my opinion. So you do what makes greekorican happy. Believe me, life is too short - I know, I'm 55! And if they won't respect your decision, then that's their problem, not yours.

[casualmadness]

Originally Posted by stratovani

life is too short...if they won't respect your decision, then that's their problem, not yours.

This bit is brilliant.

[standupright]

go to college. it's good for your brain. it provides more opportunities for you too make decisions about. feeding your brain and being educated allows you to grow in areas you many never have considered before.

[geeza]

You're not insane for considering an alternative, but education in NEVER overrated. Never. Your family may seem a little over the top, but they are just making a point. Yes, it is ultimately your decision, but if you're young, odds are it will be a bad one, and they're just trying to keep you from doing something that you'll regret later.
I know it's hard to understand now, but there is a lot to be said for years of experience. Make sure you actually listen to some.

[A-Step-Towards]

College is not a big party; my cousins are rich and got sent out of state on their parent’s dollars. SO maybe it’s a party for them but that not how the majority of college experiences are. I am 20 and a sophomore at a community college it’s my 6 term there. I live at home and ride the bus I get enough financial aid to pay for my tuition and books IF I buy my books used I actually have a couple hundred bucks left over, but my college life I far from a party and is really not glamorous at all.

I say if you can get financial aid try a 2 year program such as welding or automotive if you get enough financial aid it’s like free schooling.

[tplyons]

As a recent graduate with a bachelor's degree, I can attest that the job market is extremely difficult right now with a degree. I can't imagine trying to find a job without that piece of paper.

It's extremely unfortunate that it's nearly a necessity in this society to spend four years and several thousands of dollars (up to $150,000 in some cases for a Bachelor's degree) learning things that may or may not be applicable to the job.

But, the degree does show employers that you're capable of becoming at least proficient at several different topics... it shows that you're generally capable of having a reasonable amount of learning agility, etc. My company particularly values a liberal arts education as our education is quite diverse, and we're capable of learning several different things at the same time.

The worst part is the price of the degree, however, it's an investment in your future. I'm over $100,000 in debt in student loans, but over the course of my ~50 year career, my current debt will more than pay for itself.

My dad doesn't have a college degree, but he has 25 years of work experience and certifications out the wazoo. He was laid off several years ago and replaced by someone who had been alive less time than he was working in the industry, making $30,000 more, with no real experience. The only difference? The new guy had a bachelor's degree.



On the other hand, if you don't need to have a degree in some fields, but in most of these there are certifications that are applicable to the job. If that's what you're going for, get certified as much as possible, because THAT piece of paper will show the employers the same as a college degree in other industries.

There will always be a need for people operating in trades, as welding, transportation, etc. can't necessarily be exported to another country. So there will always be jobs in these markets, it just matters how much, or how little this job market will grow or shrink.

[UncleFluffy]

Absolutely necessary? No, only food, water, air and shelter are absolutely necessary.

Very useful? Definitely. It gives you lots more choices of both employment and residence (many countries will regard a degree as a big + if you want to move there).

More money and more jobs? On average. yes:

http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm

Right for you? Can't say, but unless you've got a really good reason why not, get the degree first, then figure out what happens next. Choices, opportunities and contacts are always good.

[standupright]

Originally Posted by tplyons

As a recent graduate with a bachelor's degree, I can attest that the job market is extremely difficult right now with a degree. I can't imagine trying to find a job without that piece of paper.

+1

i have a degree plus 12 years experience doing what i do. i was laid off in march 2009 due to budget cuts. january 2010 and still can't find a job.

[dave64o]

My wife manages a research lab for an engineering company and one of her best employees was someone who started in the field late in life. The reason? Before going back to school and getting his engineering degree (which he eventually got a Ph. D. in by the way) he was .... get this ... a doctor. Yes, a medical doctor. That's what his parents wanted him to do and he got enough pressure that he went through it, going to college for it, going to med school, completing his residency, and even practicing for a while. once he was practicing, he saved some money and went back to school to get his engineering degree that he really wanted.

It's amazing that he survived all that just to finally get his engineering degree in his late 30's, but he did. It also must have been fantastic to have finally been able to give his parents a big <INSERT-EXPLETIVE-HERE> when he finally got his first engineering job. FWIW, he still is a licensed physician. He wasn't fool enough to simply through that all away after putting in such a massive investment of his time.

The take away? Don't be like that guy. He wasted a lot of years of his life doing something someone else made him do before finally following his own path. If a trade is what speaks to you, then go for it. if you do decide to go to college at some point, you could find a program that focuses on small business and start your own company?

[Staccato]

A bachelor's degree is a common element-requirement expected for so-many jobs/applications.

Knowing what I know now, I'd have gone into engineering or become a computer techie instead of going to...Bizness school.

[L-A]

If you'd go to college without having an actual goal, then maybe it's better for you not to go *now*. However, if you are a bright and hard-working person, a lot of employers will pay you very well to stay under-educated and work for them. A lot of design students get caught this way during internships.

Professional courses sound good, however, if such education fits what you'd like your work to be.

[Solarmist]

I've worked construction all my life up untill recently, and it's OK when you're younger, but not something to spend your whole life at because your body will wear out, and you'l get burned out on working in the rain, snow, and freeze. Don't expect to make that much either.

Go to college, and get a degree at anything - it at least shows potential employers that you are reasonably intelligent, and can follow through. You can do construction on the side.

[bassybill]

Sorry for the long post, but this is a favourite passage of mine (I've quoted it here before) and it does seeme particularly relevant to a smart person considering a study of engineering, although its implications are much wider than that and it applies to any discussion of the value of education. It's a great read if you have a few minutes.

Originally Posted by Robert Pirsig

Phaedrus’ argument for the abolition of the degree-and-grading system produced a nonplussed or negative reaction in all but a few students at first, since it seemed, on first judgement, to destroy the whole University system. One student laid it wide open when she said with complete candor, "Of course you can’t eliminate the degree and grading system. After all, that’s what we’re here for."
She spoke the complete truth. The idea that the majority of students attend a university for an education independent of the degree and grades is a little hypocrisy everyone is happier not to expose. Occasionally some students do arrive for an education but rote and the mechanical nature of the institution soon converts them to a less idealistic attitude.

The demonstrator was an argument that elimination of grades and degrees would destroy this hypocrisy. Rather than deal with the generalities it dealt with the specific career of an imaginary student who more or less typified what was found in the classroom, a student completely conditioned to work for a grade rather than for the knowledge the grade was supposed to represent.

Such a student, the demonstrator hypothesized, would go to his first class, get his first assignment and probably do it out of habit. He might go to his second and third as well. But eventually the novelty of the course would wear off and, because his academic life was not his only life, the pressure of other obligations or desires would create circumstances where he just would not be able to get an assignment in.

Since there was no degree or grading system he would incur no penalty for this. Subsequent lectures which presumed he’d completed the assignment might be a little more difficult to understand, however, and this difficulty, in turn, might weaken his interest to a point where the next assignment, which he would find quite hard, would also be dropped. Again, no penalty.

In time his weaker and weaker understanding of what the lectures were about would make it more and more difficult for him to pay attention in class. Eventually he would see he wasn’t learning much; and facing the continual pressure of outside obligations, he would stop studying, feel guilty about this and stop attending class. Again, no penalty would be attached.

But what had happened? The student, with no hard feelings on anybody’s part, would have flunked himself out. Good! This is what should have happened. He wasn’t there for a real education in the first place and had no real business there at all. A large amount of money and effort had been saved and there would be no stigma of failure and ruin to haunt the rest of his life. No bridges had been burned.

The student’s biggest problem was a slave mentality which had been built into by years of carrot-and-whip grading, a mule mentality which said, "If you don’t whip me, I won’t work." He didn’t get whipped. He didn’t work. And the cart of civilization, which he supposedly was being trained to pull, was just going to have to creak along a little slower without him.

This is a tragedy, however, only if you presume that the cart of civilization, "the system," is pulled by mules. This is a common, vocational, "location" point of view, but it’s not the Church attitude.

[Note from bassybill – Here and in the following paragraph, the word "Church" is being used to refer to an abstract concept that Pirsig calls the "Church of Reason", meaning an allegiance or feeling of duty towards rationality itself. He makes a sharp distinction between this "Church" and its physical "location" and develops this idea throughout the book.]

The Church attitude is that civilization, or "the system" or "society" or whatever you want to call it, is best served not by mules but by free men. The purpose of abolishing grades and degrees is not to punish mules or to get rid of them but to provide an environment in which that mule can turn into a free man.

The hypothetical student, still a mule, would drift around for a while. He would get another kind of education quite as valuable as the one he’d abandoned, in what used to be called the "school of hard knocks." Instead of wasting money and time as a high-status mule, he would now have to get a job as a low-status mule, maybe as a mechanic. Actually his real status would go up. He would be making a contribution for a change. Maybe that’s what he’d do for the rest of his life. Maybe he’d found his level. But don’t count on it.

In time—six months, five years, perhaps—a change could easily begin to take place. He would become less and less satisfied with a kind of dumb, day-to-day shopwork. His creative intelligence, stifled by too much theory and too many grades in college, would now become reawakened by the boredom of the shop. Thousands of hours of frustrating mechanical problems would have made him more interested in machine design. He would like to design machinery himself. He’d think he could do a better job. He would try modifying a few engines, meet with success, look for more success, but feel blocked because he didn’t have the theoretical information. He would discover that when before he felt stupid because of his lack of interest in theoretical information, he’d now find a brand of theoretical information which he’d have a lot of respect for, namely mechanical engineering.

So he would come back to our degreeless and gradeless school, but with a difference. He’d no longer be a grade-motivated person. He’d be a knowledge-motivated person. He would need no external pushing to learn. His push would come from inside. He’d be a free man. He wouldn’t need a lot of discipline to shape him up. In fact, if the instructors assigned him were slacking on the job he would be likely to shape them up by asking rude questions. He’d be there to learn something, would be paying to learn something and they’d better come up with it.

Motivation of this sort, once it catches hold, is a ferocious force, and in the gradeless, degreeless institution where our student would find himself, he wouldn’t stop with the rote engineering information. Physics and mathematics were going to come within his sphere of interest because he’d need them. Metallurgy and electrical engineering would come up for attention. And, in the process of intellectual maturing that these abstract studies gave him, he would be likely to branch out into other theoretical areas that weren’t directly related to machines but had become a part of a newer, larger goal. This larger goal wouldn’t be the imitation of education in Universities today, glossed over and concealed by grades and degrees that give the appearance of something happening when, in fact, almost nothing is going on. It would be the real thing.

[lowendfriend]

FWIW, a mechanical engineering degree will give you the option of being employed at the drop of a hat as years go by. Engineering in college is not party time, but it's also way not as hard as being underemployed with a family.

In my company, we are starting most EE's and ME's at 85K with no experience and BS degrees.

The demand for engineers will monotonically increase over time due to the lack of interest on the part of American students...a massive lost opportunity.

I encourage you to go for the engineering degree and then pursue it through a more hands on role in the right kind of company. You will always have its value to fall back on and it will open doors for you. When you decide you want to move to a new city, you will have options that others don't.

That's really what it's all about.....options for key life choices.

I worked thru college at McDonald's and later doing land surveying (even tho pursuing EE) in the summer (a nice hands on technical summer job BTW.)

I then had a few years of pretty hands on engineering jobs that gave me options to trade up.

I went into consulting in radar systems....that parlayed into systems engineernig and program management jobs as the years went by.

I've enjoyed what I've done at every turn even though I never envisioned doing this when flipping burgers back at Mackie's.

Keep your options open....go to college now. You can do what ever the heck you want to do afterwards.

Especially if your parents are willing to spring, man.

[CayceG]

The BS degree is the new High School Diploma.

If you want to get a decent job in a good paying industry, then it's pretty much required if you don't have experience. Otherwise, you can go into business for yourself or learn a trade, which aren't bad options.

Just depends on what kind of person you are.


EDIT: I'm an engineer as well. Civil. I just graduated with my BS, passed my FE and will be going back for my Masters in a few days.
Frankly you CANNOT get a job as an engineer without that piece of paper. You can't be an engineer nowadays if you don't have at the very least a BS.

From the way it sounds, college isn't your best route. Go to a trade school and learn what you want. It may not make you a lot of money, but being happy is much more important than being rich.

[jive1]

I agree with your father's advice. Get a degree and work in the trades. You can start in the trades and work on your degree, or go vice versa.

Here's why I think it's great advice.

You're young, and it's much much easier as well as cheaper to attend college when you're young and don't have a wife and family. While you're young, you're still strong and healthy and a job in the trades won't be taxing to you. Now when you're 40-50 and still hacking away at your body is when that degree will come in handy. You could move up into management or something else in your field that doesn't require as much physical labor. Some guys enjoy the physical aspect of it, but some guys do it because they have no other choice and go to work with aching wrists, backs, etc.

I grew up in a blue collar neighborhood, and I have a great respect for tradesmen. They can make good money as well. What they told me is that now that they are getting old, and their body can't work like they used to, they wish they had a degree so they could do something else. But they have bills to pay and families to feed, so their choices were limited.

Have fun with your youth, but don't waste it, and don't think you'll always have it.