Is convincing a young child that Santa Claus exists considered "child abuse"?

[metron]

Child abuse? Thats an absurd notion. Santa is cool and the magic it provides for children is a nice thing. Otoh learning it was a lie was one of my earliest memories of harsh reality. Its both good and bad. If i ever have kids ill go along with it but suspect ill feel bad on some level about the lies.

[Relic]

Originally Posted by bass12

Relic - not only does he have one of the coolest avatars, he also sounds like a cool parent!

[MuinXing]

Originally Posted by Relic

I see your point but I think that you're looking at it from an odd perspective.
If we were to talk about a sense of "entitlement" in kids overall these days, I'd definitely agree. Kids tend to be more spoiled now - yeah. And if the kid's already spoiled rotten, then the Santa thing's just going to play more into it.
But I would rather say that that's more a product of the other 364 days of the year rather than just one. In addition to that, though we're bombarded by images and representations of Santa, it's ultimately the parents who set the tune as to what/who Santa is in their household.
In my household, it's ALWAYS been more so about the "magic" and "wonder" of Christmas, the giving, receiving and appreciating and so on. If it's allowed to be simply degraded into a commercial "gimme gimme gimme" thing then I think you're assessment is dead on, but it's our job as parents to make sure that doesn't happen..

It's as not as simple as spoiling your kids.

In many ways people tend to over exaggerate what aspects of a childs life is spoiled.

Having nice things does not spoil a child, having nice things because your child thinks it's special spoils the child.

If a child learns that they get special gifts for christmas because they are special it sets them to think that they will always get special treatment.

I'm not anti christmas in the least, I just think the over indulgence of the parents ruins christmas for the child.

A kid can be just as happy making christmas decorations, meating family, eating cooks, etc, as it will with some toys.

What happens, and almost everyone born after 1980 can tell you, that the gifts overshadow all of this. And make christmas a truly narcissistic event.

Christmas for most people I know is a super depression, miserable event. And I think it's highly likely that the consumerist aspects of it are a large part of it.

I mean were all suppose to feel great about going broke, for just a few days.

Granted for me I got cash for christmas after about 15, so that aspect for me never really stayed. But I can't help but notice it in others.

[MatticusMania]

Originally Posted by MuinXing

If a child learns that they get special gifts for christmas because they are special it sets them to think that they will always get special treatment.

I dont think it sets that precedent at all. Rather, it sets them to think that they'll get special gifts because its christmas. And this would be true, as theyre not generally receiving special gifts all year round.

I'm not anti christmas in the least, I just think the over indulgence of the parents ruins christmas for the child.

A kid can be just as happy making christmas decorations, meating family, eating cooks, etc, as it will with some toys.

The solution is really quite simple then... like I was getting at earlier - as a parent, dont overinduge your child at Christmas. Its easy enough to play up the giving aspect of Christmas rather than the receiving. Share with your child the importance of decorating, meeting family, etc. When I was a kid my favorite part of Christmas was helping my mom bake cookies.

What happens, and almost everyone born after 1980 can tell you, that the gifts overshadow all of this. And make christmas a truly narcissistic event.

Or not. I was born in '84, and Ive already told you what my favorite part of Christmas was. Sure, I looked forward to opening gifts, as every child does, but my family was not well off, and I always got socks and underwear for Christmas, maybe a board game or a small toy.

Christmas for most people I know is a super depression, miserable event. And I think it's highly likely that the consumerist aspects of it are a large part of it.

I mean were all suppose to feel great about going broke, for just a few days.

Every few months we get a month with five Fridays, and that means one extra paycheck that I dont have bills due, that I can spend freely. November was one of those months, and I was happy to set aside that cash so that I could buy gifts for my family. After the family get together, giving gifts to my parents, brother, sister, nieces, girlfriend, and the less fortunate is my favorite part of Christmas. And not just any gifts, but gifts they'll enjoy.

What youre getting on about has much less to do with the notion of Santa, and a lot more to do with how parents raise their children. Just about every negative aspect youve mentioned in regards to Santa, Christmas, entitlement, and spoiling children can be thwarted by good parenting.

[Relic]

Originally Posted by MuinXing

It's as not as simple as spoiling your kids.

In many ways people tend to over exaggerate what aspects of a childs life is spoiled.

Having nice things does not spoil a child, having nice things because your child thinks it's special spoils the child.

If a child learns that they get special gifts for christmas because they are special it sets them to think that they will always get special treatment.

I'm not anti christmas in the least, I just think the over indulgence of the parents ruins christmas for the child.

A kid can be just as happy making christmas decorations, meating family, eating cooks, etc, as it will with some toys.

What happens, and almost everyone born after 1980 can tell you, that the gifts overshadow all of this. And make christmas a truly narcissistic event.

Christmas for most people I know is a super depression, miserable event. And I think it's highly likely that the consumerist aspects of it are a large part of it.

I mean were all suppose to feel great about going broke, for just a few days.

Granted for me I got cash for christmas after about 15, so that aspect for me never really stayed. But I can't help but notice it in others.

Again - Christmas is what you make of it. It can certainly be miserable as you say. It can be frustrating, it can be depressing. It can also be totally awesome. It all depends on how a parent(s) handles it and presents it in the home to the child.

I often hear people complain and moan about the commercialism behind it - it's all about gifts and $$$, etc etc and I can see that every time I walk into a store or watch TV. But, damn..that said, who the heck ever said that Walmart or Target rules what goes on in my home or yours? Eeek! No darn way. I-me-Dad and mom control what goes on in my home and how Christmas is celebrated
If mom and dad want to present Santa as a "jolly fat dude that tosses presents around" in order to teach the kids about giving, and appreciating and about appreciating family and such, then Santa's a good tool to do just that. In fact, the whole Santa angle could be teaching kids to do exactly the opposite of what you're claiming. It just depends on how a parent chooses to present it.

[MatticusMania]

Originally Posted by Relic

Again - Christmas is what you make of it. It can certainly be miserable as you say. It can be frustrating, it can be depressing. It can also be totally awesome. It all depends on how a parent(s) handles it and presents it in the home to the child.

Sensible comment is sensible.

[Turock]

Originally Posted by Relic

This prompts the other to go on a tangent about how "lying to your kids about some stupid fat guy who does the impossible is like child abuse because it shows such little respect for them".

That woman sounds like a dumb ass who thinks that she is more enlightened than those who don't "get it" about Santa. I wouldn't have been able to hold back the laughter.

[DwaynieAD]

Originally Posted by Turock

That woman sounds like a dumb ass who thinks that she is more enlightened than those who don't "get it" about Santa. I wouldn't have been able to hold back the laughter.

I would've peed on her shoes.

[MuinXing]

Originally Posted by Relic

Again - Christmas is what you make of it. It can certainly be miserable as you say. It can be frustrating, it can be depressing. It can also be totally awesome. It all depends on how a parent(s) handles it and presents it in the home to the child.

I often hear people complain and moan about the commercialism behind it - it's all about gifts and $$$, etc etc and I can see that every time I walk into a store or watch TV. But, damn..that said, who the heck ever said that Walmart or Target rules what goes on in my home or yours? Eeek! No darn way. I-me-Dad and mom control what goes on in my home and how Christmas is celebrated
If mom and dad want to present Santa as a "jolly fat dude that tosses presents around" in order to teach the kids about giving, and appreciating and about appreciating family and such, then Santa's a good tool to do just that. In fact, the whole Santa angle could be teaching kids to do exactly the opposite of what you're claiming. It just depends on how a parent chooses to present it.

Obviously you can do things a hundred different ways from sunday.

My point is not having santa and not allowing gift giving would be a simple option most people would benefit from.

As I said I'm not anti christmas, I'm not even against giving your kids stuff.

My point is that many parents put how they feel about their kids before how the kid actually feels.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tjkqu2f_OyU

This video explains part of it quite well. But it's not directly what I'm talking about.

[RandalPinkFloyd]

Child abuse, no. But I'm against it. It's basically teaching your children that it's ok to lie to make someone happy. I still remember the embarrassment of arguing with kids at school thinking my mother would never lie to me and that they were all wrong. I was probably the last kid to know in my class. Embarrassed, angry, etc. I still remember that. Why do people lie about such trivial things? Maybe thats why lying is such a sore spot for me. I didn't enjoy christmas any less after I found out because the present and the lights were always my favorite part. And getting to see some of my cousins when they came to visit for our big family christmas gtg.

[Relic]

Originally Posted by MuinXing

Obviously you can do things a hundred different ways from sunday.

My point is not having santa and not allowing gift giving would be a simple option most people would benefit from.

I dunno if I'd say "most" personally, but some? Oh yeah I agree.

Originally Posted by MuinXing

As I said I'm not anti christmas, I'm not even against giving your kids stuff.

No worries. I didn't think that at all. My impression is that you're steering towards a more sensible and real Christmas in your view by omitting the whole Santa and present-lust aspect.

Originally Posted by MuinXing

My point is that many parents put how they feel about their kids before how the kid actually feels.

Hmm.... I think that this is absolutely true these days, I agree. Look at little league sports where parents freak out if their kid gets a bad call on them or some other kid tackles your kid too roughly - it's as though many parents are existing vicariously through their kids, or at the very least their taking things far too personally. A parent like that's reaction is probably tougher to bear for the child than the actual "bad call" let's say.
But - a kid can feel and think many many things, some logical some not. It's a parent's job to teach and to guide and do the best they can to make sure the child develops correctly emotionally and mentally. You cannot simply let a child teach themselves. Let a child think for him/herself for sure, but a parent who puts their child's emotions first - THEY are the ones who are actually spoiling the child, no?

Originally Posted by MuinXing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tjkqu2f_OyU

This video explains part of it quite well. But it's not directly what I'm talking about.

I'll give it a look.

[bass12]

Originally Posted by MuinXing

A kid can be just as happy making christmas decorations, meating family, eating cooks, etc, as it will with some toys.

If this was Christmas at your house I'm beginning to understand why you feel the way you do.

Okay, I'm sorry - I couldn't help it.

[MatticusMania]

Originally Posted by RandalPinkFloyd

It's basically teaching your children that it's ok to lie to make someone happy.

Im all for people not telling their kids about Santa if they choose. I kind of feel the same way myself. But, I fail to see how telling about Santa teaches them that its okay to lie to make someone happy. Again, their are many different ways to tell your children about Santa without telling them any lies.
In fact, Id fill my kids in on the real reasons behind Christmas and the Santa myth. A young child who doesnt know about Santa is likely to get made fun of by the other kids who do believe. Knowledge is power.

[Relic]

Originally Posted by bass12

If this was Christmas at your house I'm beginning to understand why you feel the way you do.

Okay, I'm sorry - I couldn't help it.

Holy Cannibal Claus!!

[macaroni tony]

Child abuse? Wow. How profound, lady


Now granted I don't do the whole Christmas thing, but I fail to see how the retelling of the Santa Claus tradition contributes to the wholesale destruction of our children as we know it.

[MuinXing]

Originally Posted by MatticusMania

Im all for people not telling their kids about Santa if they choose. I kind of feel the same way myself. But, I fail to see how telling about Santa teaches them that its okay to lie to make someone happy. Again, their are many different ways to tell your children about Santa without telling them any lies.
In fact, Id fill my kids in on the real reasons behind Christmas and the Santa myth. A young child who doesnt know about Santa is likely to get made fun of by the other kids who do believe. Knowledge is power.

Yeah I'll agree her kids gotta learn that people lie constantly.


My issue isn't the lie, it's creating a mystical world which is ok on its own, but than connecting it to a very concrete thing, which is money.

It creates this fixation that some magical guy in the sky is gonna fulfill their desires.

[MatticusMania]

Originally Posted by MuinXing

My issue isn't the lie, it's creating a mystical world which is ok on its own, but than connecting it to a very concrete thing, which is money.

Those two things are very easy to disassociate if one is awre that a possible connection can be made.

It creates this fixation that some magical guy in the sky is gonna fulfill their desires.

Does it really? Never have I heard the idea that Santa will fulfill my desires. Do many parents tell their kids year round that if theyre not good they won't get what they want from Santa? Its usually something only said around the Christmas time.

[MakiSupaStar]

[Truktek2]

Santa Clause is just the keeping of Saint Nicholas' tradition alive, who was indeed very much real.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas

Merry Christmas! (or Happy Holidays)

[Ziltoid]

With a Coca-Cola spin tho