Dear TalkBass: How do I survive organic chem?

[Scarlet Fire]

So, next semester I'm taking organic chem with a professor notorious amongst science students as being one of the most difficult teachers on campus.

My questions to all of you who have gone through this class in the past: is it really as hard as people say? What were your strategies for keeping on top of the material?

[Hawaii Islander]

First semester Organic Chemistry is not that bad. I would establish a study routine (and study group) as soon as possible. Safety in numbers.

It's second semester Organic Chemistry that you should worry about! Learn those "mechanisms of reactions" thoroughly asap (before the semester begins, if possible). Again, study groups make a difference!

Good Luck!

[i_got_a_mohawk]

I wouldnt say it is that hard.

IME anyway, I found physical chemistry the hardest. My background is in Biochem, but there was a fair bit of organic chem & physical chem in there too.

Just study and be sure to ask questions if you arent sure

[animal52]

Ah! finally a thread that I'm qualified to answer. I just finished my Ph.D. program in organic chem a few months ago.

The thing about organic is that it's very intuitive compared to p-chem, and not quite as memorization-intensive as biology, and not quantitative at all. That's not to say you won't need to memorize lots of stuff, you will.

Orgo is concerned primarily with structure and mechanisms, and what always worked for me was to make sure that I understood WHY the molecules were reacting according to a certain mechanism. If you do that, you'll see the similarities between alot of reactions that initially look to be very different, and this will help you with the memorization component.

One more thing: Draw curved arrows for every reaction you encounter (that'll make sense once you've taken a few classes).

I kinda disagree with the whole safety in numbers thing. Your classmates will probably tell you alot of stupid shiite that'll get you thinking the wrong way. I would use the TA and professor office hours as much as you need. The great thing about orgo is that your TA will probably speak english

Good luck. Orgo is not nearly as hard as people make it out to be.

[Hawaii Islander]

Originally Posted by animal52

Ah! finally a thread that I'm qualified to answer. I just finished my Ph.D. program in organic chem a few months ago.

The thing about organic is that it's very intuitive compared to p-chem, and not quite as memorization-intensive as biology, and not quantitative at all. That's not to say you won't need to memorize lots of stuff, you will.

Orgo is concerned primarily with structure and mechanisms, and what always worked for me was to make sure that I understood WHY the molecules were reacting according to a certain mechanism. If you do that, you'll see the similarities between alot of reactions that initially look to be very different, and this will help you with the memorization component.

One more thing: Draw curved arrows for every reaction you encounter (that'll make sense once you've taken a few classes).

I kinda disagree with the whole safety in numbers thing. Your classmates will probably tell you alot of stupid shiite that'll get you thinking the wrong way. I would use the TA and professor office hours as much as you need. The great thing about orgo is that your TA will probably speak english

Good luck. Orgo is not nearly as hard as people make it out to be.

We established organized study groups with an upper division chem major who was approved by the professor to lead the study groups. He got directed studies credit and a stipend for his time. Our small campus didn't have TA's.

I still like discussing a subject with others rather than going it alone (for any subject). It helps with the overall thinking process. JMO

[coreyfyfe]

Study. My text book came with a book equally thick which was all just extra problems. Over the course of the two semesters I did every single problem that accompanied the chapters we studied. Ended up with a 90-something average in both semesters.


Edit - Wait I remember you, you're the kid that had the thread about trying to stay at northeastern. Are you still here? Is the class with warner? If it is, good luck to you, he fails people for sport. I was supposed to have him, but he was placed on leave that semester and wasn't allowed to teach classes. Ended up with Kugabolasori (sp?) for Orgo I and Ayer for Orgo II. Both were very talented teachers with very different styles. I think Ayer is the only one who teaches Orgo II in the summers, so if you can manage to get him for that class, you should be golden. As far as Warner, it really will come down to just studying as much as possible. The example problems in the book really do help, and the tests are drawn from those.

[rr5025]

Drink heavily?

(from a Civil Engineer who hates chem immensely).

[coreyfyfe]

Although I'm not usually a fan of study groups, because sometimes the people most looking to study are the ones who aren't entirely helpful, there are also times when an outside person can ask questions that either A you haven't thought of or B you didn't know you didn't know the answer to.

[dj150888]

Originally Posted by animal52

Ah! finally a thread that I'm qualified to answer. I just finished my Ph.D. program in organic chem a few months ago.

The thing about organic is that it's very intuitive compared to p-chem, and not quite as memorization-intensive as biology, and not quantitative at all. That's not to say you won't need to memorize lots of stuff, you will.

Orgo is concerned primarily with structure and mechanisms, and what always worked for me was to make sure that I understood WHY the molecules were reacting according to a certain mechanism. If you do that, you'll see the similarities between alot of reactions that initially look to be very different, and this will help you with the memorization component.

One more thing: Draw curved arrows for every reaction you encounter (that'll make sense once you've taken a few classes).

I kinda disagree with the whole safety in numbers thing. Your classmates will probably tell you alot of stupid shiite that'll get you thinking the wrong way. I would use the TA and professor office hours as much as you need. The great thing about orgo is that your TA will probably speak english

Good luck. Orgo is not nearly as hard as people make it out to be.

This is spot on the money. I'm in the middle of my MSci in Chemistry, 1st semester organic chemistry should be fairly straightforward, you'll look back and wonder what you were worrying so much for. The point about the curly arrows for your mechanisms is also great. You'll waste marks on such a silly thing if you don't just make yourself remember it straight away.

The best way to approach organic chem. is to try and understand WHY the reaction is happening, its all very logical. Don't (just) sit and memorise your mechanisms, learn why they happen and it makes it much much easier. Thats where a lot of people fall down in organic.

[James_B]

Hey bass players with chemistry background, whats the job market in chemistry after you graduate like? My professors vaguely tell me, and I quote "It's good". As if it's some sort of secret waiting for me until after I graduate.

Anyone want to give me a heads up and reassure me that I'm not wasting eight months out of every year studying my arse off.

Second question; Exactly when does a science teacher/professor or professional lose their basic skill of spelling and grammar? All my professor are horrible spellers and I'm quickly catching up with them

To O.P.
Study, ask question, study, do homework, study, go to office hours, study, find a way to relieve stress from studying, study, then find a healthier way of relieving stress, study and pay attention to detail. Great chemist always pay great attention to detail.....apparently

[Fontaine]

Keep up on the material early, it can get confusing. Don't leave it all for a coupl of nights before an exam or you will have no chance.

Good luck, just keep in mind its going to take some time to undertand and I am a firm believer in studying by yourself for at least an hour to 2 hours then joinging a larger group later. I like to keep it around 1-2 other people, I find this great because this way if you run into something you can't figure out on your own you can then ask the group their thoughts after you are able to think it throughl carefully.

[Jared Lash]

It's hard for me to say this, but fontaine is right.

Some good advice in this thread, but to me O-chem was not difficult IF you stay on top of the material and don't try to cram, especially second semester. Lots of practice and consistent studying and you should be fine. To me O-Chem isn't so much super difficult as it is a class that separates students who are dedicated from those who think they can just study for a few hours before an exam.

As an aside, I remember one exam where there was a synthesis problem (which you'll learn about). I started out working backwards and got to where I was stuck. Then I went forwards until I knew there were only one or two steps left to join the two sides but I couldn't figure out what they were. So I scribbled something vaguely looking like a logical step but unreadable. Got 10/10 on that problem and two standard deviations above the mean for the exam - my best score on any midterm in O-Chem.

Good luck.

[Sterling_Bass]

I'll be taking it in the Fall as well. I'm hoping good study habits and determination will be enough to succeed. I didn't enjoy General Chemistry at my school, but I think I will like Orgo better because of the lack of computations. Maintaing a positive attitude is a good start in any tough situation.

[Scarlet Fire]

Originally Posted by coreyfyfe

Study. My text book came with a book equally thick which was all just extra problems. Over the course of the two semesters I did every single problem that accompanied the chapters we studied. Ended up with a 90-something average in both semesters.


Edit - Wait I remember you, you're the kid that had the thread about trying to stay at northeastern. Are you still here? Is the class with warner? If it is, good luck to you, he fails people for sport. I was supposed to have him, but he was placed on leave that semester and wasn't allowed to teach classes. Ended up with Kugabolasori (sp?) for Orgo I and Ayer for Orgo II. Both were very talented teachers with very different styles. I think Ayer is the only one who teaches Orgo II in the summers, so if you can manage to get him for that class, you should be golden. As far as Warner, it really will come down to just studying as much as possible. The example problems in the book really do help, and the tests are drawn from those.

Yeah, I got Warner. I'm going to see if I can switch to Forsyth, but my schedule might not allow it. I've heard some absolute horror stories about Warner, though, which is why I'm so afraid.

Edit: Nope, can't switch out. No more seats available in any of the other Orgo I classes.

[Pilgrim]

I'm going to paste in the exact answer I just wrote in the "I'm a college student" thread. The four points are pertinent. I also agree with the point above about not falling behind. Of course, in a course like organic chem, my advice is lightweight...but still worth repeating.

I've worked at universities for 29 years. Here's what I told my daughters (who have 3.4 and 3.86 grade point averages) about how to pass classes:

1) GO TO CLASS. EVERY CLASS. NO EXCUSES. Many students never figure this out.
2) Sit in front, and TAKE NOTES. Taking notes actually aids in retention because it adds motor memory to cognition.
3) Before every test, READ YOUR NOTES. It helps to actually read the text as well, but much of what you'll be tested in in most (not all) classes is in the notes.
4) TURN IN all your assignments, and do it on time. I'm amazed at how many students don't turn in work, or do it late.

I have told many students these four simple rules, and every one that has listened and put them to work has done well.

Of course, reading the text and doing other work will improve your grades....that's obvious. But all too many students don't do the four things above. Remember, college IS your job. Treat it like a job and do the work. After all, you're paying for every minute of every class.

[coreyfyfe]

Originally Posted by Scarlet Fire

Yeah, I got Warner. I'm going to see if I can switch to Forsyth, but my schedule might not allow it. I've heard some absolute horror stories about Warner, though, which is why I'm so afraid.

Edit: Nope, can't switch out. No more seats available in any of the other Orgo I classes.

You have to take the horror stories with a grain of salt. He may be a lot tougher than other teachers, but study hard, do the the problems, and hope for your best. That's all you can really do. He doesn't fail everyone, and it probably won't be as bad as people make it out to be. Just put in the effort that's required of you.

[yamark]

+1 on that physical chemistry.

I too had the notorious Organic prof. This is not good advice so don't do this.

Over the 2 semesters I had organic 1 and 2, I may have went to class 5 times. I found that going to any class was completely worthless for me as I would not listen to 1 word any of my teachers said. I kept up with the syllabus on my own. Prior to midterms and exams, I divulged myself in these insane 12+ hour study sessions. Somehow managed an A in both 1 and 2.

I went to every single physical chemistry class and got a C. Go figure.

[Flintlock]

2 things I've learnt in my fresher year:

Learn, don't memorise
Start early.

I did a massive cramming session 3 weeks before my exams; although I passed the year without resits (more then a lot of people in my year) it almost killed me. 12 hour stints aren't fun.

[Chebass88]

Originally Posted by Fontaine

Keep up on the material early, it can get confusing. Don't leave it all for a coupl of nights before an exam or you will have no chance.

I did this. I should have / could have done MUCH MUCH better in ORGO. I left all my studying for a night or two before the exam. I got a 9% on one of them (open book / notes, too!)

Here's my hint: Get a CHEMISTRY MODEL KIT. You'll learn a lot about stereochemistry (the orientation of molecules essentially), and a simple carbon model with 4 groups (numbered so you remember) is priceless.

W.R.T. job market - you might be better off picking up the chemical engineering courses. That way, you can always get a job as a chemist, but not necessarily the other way around. Besides, making stuff in a lab is fun. Making it in giant reactors larger than yourself is even better. (just messing around there!)

ian

[jucas]

Originally Posted by animal52

Ah! finally a thread that I'm qualified to answer. I just finished my Ph.D. program in organic chem a few months ago.

The thing about organic is that it's very intuitive compared to p-chem, and not quite as memorization-intensive as biology, and not quantitative at all. That's not to say you won't need to memorize lots of stuff, you will.

Orgo is concerned primarily with structure and mechanisms, and what always worked for me was to make sure that I understood WHY the molecules were reacting according to a certain mechanism. If you do that, you'll see the similarities between alot of reactions that initially look to be very different, and this will help you with the memorization component.

One more thing: Draw curved arrows for every reaction you encounter (that'll make sense once you've taken a few classes).

I kinda disagree with the whole safety in numbers thing. Your classmates will probably tell you alot of stupid shiite that'll get you thinking the wrong way. I would use the TA and professor office hours as much as you need. The great thing about orgo is that your TA will probably speak english

Good luck. Orgo is not nearly as hard as people make it out to be.

Originally Posted by dj150888

This is spot on the money. I'm in the middle of my MSci in Chemistry, 1st semester organic chemistry should be fairly straightforward, you'll look back and wonder what you were worrying so much for. The point about the curly arrows for your mechanisms is also great. You'll waste marks on such a silly thing if you don't just make yourself remember it straight away.

The best way to approach organic chem. is to try and understand WHY the reaction is happening, its all very logical. Don't (just) sit and memorise your mechanisms, learn why they happen and it makes it much much easier. Thats where a lot of people fall down in organic.

I only did a year of organic chem, but I actually really enjoyed it. Both the posts above are definately the ones to pay attention too. Two things worked for me as someone that didn't go on to do more organic chem (but would have if GPA's didn't matter so much)

1) Memorize only what you absolutely have to. Learn to work through questions instead.
2) understand functional groups and learn to love moving electrons around and drawing curved arrows

(and i agree with avoiding study groups for every class, not just organic chem, but if it works for ya, go for it.)