Death by OD / suicide / etc., and acknowledging it

[Eric Perry]

Hey all,

The thread about Slipknot bassist Paul Gray's death got me thinking, and caused a bit o' turmoil in that thread...

It has been alleged that he died of an OD based on his hx of drug use / abuse. Granted, we do not know *how* he died at this point, but for argument, let's assume it was drug related. If ya'll have an issue with that, substitute his name with Layne Staley, River Phoenix, John Entwistle, whatever.

Is it really so wrong, bad, distasteful, whatever to acknowledge they died of very poor and self-destructive decision making so soon after their death? Look at Brad Delp. Suicide. He left a fiance and kids behind. Is it so wrong to ackowledge his selfish acts in the hours or days following his death? I was a *massive* Brad Delp and Layne Staley fan. I will admit I cried a little when I heard Brad ended his life. For me, that doesn't change the fact that his decision making essentially screwed over people he loved dearly.

As I said in the Gray thread, I think it IS a good time to acknowledge how they died. Instead of retyping or paraphrasing what I said, below is my actual post from that thread.

You tell me, am I a realist that feels it's incredibly important to acknowledge ALL facets (positive and negative) of someone's life and death, or am I a heartless jackass?

Originally Posted by Eric Perry

I look at it differently. I think now IS the time to acknowledge how his (or anyone's, for that matter) incredibly poor decision-making cost them their life and left many loved ones grieving. To ME, I think we need to stop being so soft, and be realists. Now is the time (when the sting is fresh) to acknowledge he did it to himself. What better way to potentially curb others from following in the same self-destructive path?

I dunno, maybe it's just me. No one has said anything about the guy that doesn't appear to be true. Why sugar coat everything?

I was one of the biggest Layne Staley fans ever. The day after he died, I had no problem saying the idiot killed himself because of his DUMB decision making and habits of a druggie!

When Brad Delp of Boston died, I literally cried a little. I was a massive massive fan of his voice, his music, and everything he stood for as a person. Despite that, I did not SUGAR COAT the fact the he left his fiance all alone following his selfish act of killing himself.


We need to all grow a set and stop gingerly dancing around the pink elephants.

[mike_v_s]

You're a heartless jackass, but it has nothing to do with your opinion on this....

Mike

[MakiSupaStar]

Originally Posted by Eric Perry

Hey all,

The thread about Slipknot bassist Paul Gray's death got me thinking, and caused a bit o' turmoil in that thread...

It has been alleged that he died of an OD based on his hx of drug use / abuse. Granted, we do not know *how* he died at this point, but for argument, let's assume it was drug related. If ya'll have an issue with that, substitute his name with Layne Staley, River Phoenix, John Entwistle, whatever.

Is it really so wrong, bad, distasteful, whatever to acknowledge they died of very poor and self-destructive decision making so soon after their death? Look at Brad Delp. Suicide. He left a fiance and kids behind. Is it so wrong to ackowledge his selfish acts in the hours or days following his death? I was a *massive* Brad Delp and Layne Staley fan. I will admit I cried a little when I heard Brad ended his life. For me, that doesn't change the fact that his decision making essentially screwed over people he loved dearly.

As I said in the Gray thread, I think it IS a good time to acknowledge how they died. Instead of retyping or paraphrasing what I said, below is my actual post from that thread.

You tell me, am I a realist that feels it's incredibly important to acknowledge ALL facets (positive and negative) of someone's life and death, or am I a heartless jackass?

I think those elephants (if you're referring to the common metaphor of the topic people are skirting around) they're just referred to as 'elephants' in the room. Pink elephants are reference to hallucinations during DT's that drunks suffer, IIRC. Anyway, I agree but with a caviar (). I think that the cause of death should be announced after autopsy or official toxicology reports have been released. I don't believe in sugar coating the nature of death either, but I also don't think cause of death should be reported based on speculation, even if it's almost painfully obvious how he died (like with a needle still in his arm for example). Report the facts, let the readers process their emotions as it may be.

[Gard]

Originally Posted by Eric Perry

You tell me, am I a realist that feels it's incredibly important to acknowledge ALL facets (positive and negative) of someone's life and death, or am I a heartless jackass?

Yes.





...seriously, it may be too soon to put it so bluntly, but that in no way negates the accuracy of the observation.

In life, as in music, timing is essential.

[Eric Perry]

Originally Posted by mike_v_s

You're a heartless jackass, but it has nothing to do with your opinion on this....

Mike

Well, sure. I shoulda clarified.

[mike_v_s]

I'm kidding. I'm not sure I have a problem acknowledging what he did. I had a friend take his own life in college. My response at the time was anger and I feel it was valid. He did something permanently stupid. It doesn't change the good ****, but it sure leaves a mark on it.

Mike

[Gard]

Originally Posted by MakiSupaStar

caviot

I believe the word you're searching for here is "caveat"....

...Mister English Teacher...

[MakiSupaStar]

Originally Posted by Gard

I believe the word you're searching for here is "caveat"....

...Mister English Teacher...

Check my ninja edit ....

Mister Pink Elephant Counselor...

[Woodchuck]

To answer your question, I've found that on TB over the years, it depends on who dies.

[Gard]

Originally Posted by mike_v_s

I'm kidding. I'm not sure I have a problem acknowledging what he did. I had a friend take his own life in college. My response at the time was anger and I feel it was valid. He did something permanently stupid. It doesn't change the good ****, but it sure leaves a mark on it.

Mike

Happened to me as a senior in HS. We'd been friends since we were in the 6th grade, playing little league football together.

I was furious, heartbroken, and confused.

I still haven't forgiven him for what he did to those that cared for him.

[Gard]

Originally Posted by MakiSupaStar

Check my ninja edit ....

Mister Pink Elephant Counselor...

...I smell fish eggs...

[Eric Perry]

Originally Posted by MakiSupaStar

I think those elephants (if you're referring to the common metaphor of the topic people are skirting around) they're just referred to as 'elephants' in the room. Pink elephants are reference to hallucinations during DT's that drunks suffer, IIRC. Anyway, I agree but with a caviar (). I think that the cause of death should be announced after autopsy or official toxicology reports have been released. I don't believe in sugar coating the nature of death either, but I also don't think cause of death should be reported based on speculation, even if it's almost painfully obvious how he died (like with a needle still in his arm for example). Report the facts, let the readers process their emotions as it may be.

Pink elephants is also a therapy term used when a massive issue is right there in clear view, but everyone ignores it and dances around it.

I agree with your input on speculation. Once the *truth* is known, I have no problem with someone like Paul Gray (or anyone, for that matter) getting hammered on how he died.

Like I said, I loved Delp and Staley, but had NO problem calling a spade a spade so soon after they died. Why sugar coat it? Does it really help anyone or anything??? I felt horrible over their deaths, and hated to see them go, and was also quick to point out they did it to themselves, and have little to no sympathy for self-inflicted crap!

If my mom dies of lung cancer because she smokes far too much, I will have a hard time feeling bad for her (yes, really). If I die of cirrhosis because I enjoy my alcohol, I don't want anyone side-stepping the FACT that I did it to myself.

[Phalex]

Originally Posted by Gard

I still haven't forgiven him for what he did to those that cared for him.

Yep. I'm gonna kick my buddy Mike square in the nuts if we ever meet up on the other side.

[MakiSupaStar]

Originally Posted by Eric Perry

Pink elephants is also a therapy term used when a massive issue is right there in clear view, but everyone ignores it and dances around it.

I agree with your input on speculation. Once the *truth* is known, I have no problem with someone like Paul Gray (or anyone, for that matter) getting hammered on how he died.

Like I said, I loved Delp and Staley, but had NO problem calling a spade a spade so soon after they died. Why sugar coat it? Does it really help anyone or anything??? I felt horrible over their deaths, and hated to see them go, and was also quick to point out they did it to themselves, and have little to no sympathy for self-inflicted crap!

If my mom dies of lung cancer because she smokes far too much, I will have a hard time feeling bad for her (yes, really). If I die of cirrhosis because I enjoy my alcohol, I don't want anyone side-stepping the FACT that I did it to myself.

Yeah we see eye to eye on this. I agree. If it's their own stupid fault, and or they commit a selfish act then I'll call it like it is. Personally, and I saw that thread, I think to start bashing the dude because you didn't like his music, or the gimmicks with the mask, or didn't think he deserved all the money he made as a bassplayer is in poor taste at least this soon after his death.

[LarryO]

In the grand scheme of things it makes absolutely no difference what you, I or anyone else thinks. He's still dead

[jive1]

I agree with alot of what you are saying. But, you also have to think of the children left behind who are unable to comprehend what has happened. Sure you can tell a 4 year old that their father committed suicide, but they will not understand it. Children are very self-centered and there's a good chance that the kid will be blaming themselves for what happened.

The adults in their lives may understand it, but the children may not. IMO, it is in their best interest to be told the truth as they grow up and can better wrap their minds around it. Suicide, overdose, etc. is hard for an adult to wrap their minds around, let alone a child.

[Eric Perry]

Originally Posted by MakiSupaStar

...Personally, and I saw that thread, I think to start bashing the dude because you didn't like his music, or the gimmicks with the mask, or didn't think he deserved all the money he made as a bassplayer is in poor taste at least this soon after his death.

Could not agree more.

[Cannabass]

Originally Posted by LarryO

In the grand scheme of things it makes absolutely no difference what you, I or anyone else thinks. He's still dead

this.

and so to focus on the negative aspects of tragic events like this isn't worthwhile, unless you enjoy pointless negativity.

[L-A]

There's a huge difference in saying he died of an overdose, and qualifying him as a drug addict. I have no problem with the former. It is okay - and important - to acknowledge his actions as they were. There should be no offense seen or taken in this.

[EricF]

Originally Posted by Eric Perry

Once the *truth* is known, I have no problem with someone like Paul Gray (or anyone, for that matter) getting hammered on how he died.

This ^

Originally Posted by MakiSupaStar

I think to start bashing the dude because you didn't like his music, or the gimmicks with the mask, or didn't think he deserved all the money he made as a bassplayer is in poor taste at least this soon after his death.

This ^

Originally Posted by jive1

...you also have to think of the children left behind who are unable to comprehend what has happened. Sure you can tell a 4 year old that their father committed suicide, but they will not understand it. Children are very self-centered and there's a good chance that the kid will be blaming themselves for what happened.

The adults in their lives may understand it, but the children may not. IMO, it is in their best interest to be told the truth as they grow up and can better wrap their minds around it. Suicide, overdose, etc. is hard for an adult to wrap their minds around, let alone a child.

And this ^

My father took his own life when I was a young adult. It took me a while, but I eventually came to understand why he made that choice. In his case, it was a (horrible) choice rather a result of recklessness. If this had happened when I was a child, I never could have never been able to comprehend things in the same way.