Did Lt. John Pike torture students at UCDavis?

[CDweller]

Is this torture?

tor·ture/ˈtôrCHər/
Noun:
The action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or in order to force them to do or say something.
Verb:
Inflict severe pain on.
Synonyms:
noun. torment - anguish - agony - pain - excruciation - rack
verb. torment - rack - excruciate - agonize - tantalize


Police pepper spraying and arresting students at UC Davis - YouTube

[stratovani]

As I see it the key word in your definition is "severe". While being pepper sprayed is obviously no fun, I don't think it would compare with having a car battery attached via jumper cables to one's testicles, or having fingers and toes cut off one by one.

[OldDog52]

I refuse to judge the action based on a few seconds of video. Need more data about the specifics of the situation.

[cheezewiz]

A pepper fogger is a recognized crowd control tool. As has been said, there isn't anywhere near enough information in that video to determine if it was properly used or not.

[jrthebassguy]

Most of the accounts I've read about this are horrifying - but even if they are exaggerating, the use of pepper spray still seems a bit excessive. If they truly were violating some sort of laws can't the officers just pick them up and cuff them one by one?

[jrthebassguy]

Looks like the School is not pleased with his actions: BBC News - Pepper spray: US campus police suspended

[Staccato]

Peaceful protest is an idea. However, what is necessary to expect from protesters in this country is that members of law enforcement can end their shift without bottles thrown at them or worse from malcontents. If LE have to work to maintain a safe environment for everyone, let them spray a few lousy protesters. I want police 'free' to answer a call for my safety instead of their sitting in an emergency room having glass taken out of their face (or worse) from protesters that can't spell peaceful, or reasonable protest.

UC Davis students are mostly focused on one of three things (I hope), school work, working a part-time job, or socializing in small gatherings away from any protests.

[tastybasslines]

Originally Posted by jrthebassguy

Most of the accounts I've read about this are horrifying - but even if they are exaggerating, the use of pepper spray still seems a bit excessive. If they truly were violating some sort of laws can't the officers just pick them up and cuff them one by one?

In one article I read, a Police Chief said that pepper spray is a tool that is much preferable to use to break up crowds and is better than direct engagement like you are suggesting, which also keeps injury risk for the officers down by creating distance.

On a side note, I'm all for peaceful protesting, but these people are infringing on the rights of others by blocking public pathways, and that is not "peaceful". Go to a grassy area instead that allows people and students to continue their daily activities as they should be able to.

Words like "torture", and "extreme violence" just do not apply here.

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by tastybasslines

On a side note, I'm all for peaceful protesting, but these people are infringing on the rights of others by blocking public pathways, and that is not "peaceful". Go to a grassy area instead that allows people and students to continue their daily activities as they should be able to.

What rights were they infringing on, exactly?

Did you watch the video? You have a group of people literally sitting down on what looks like a sidewalk of sorts, and then a cop comes up and maces them in the face. While you can't tell the whole story from the video alone, you can get a hint that the officer in question over reacted considering how placid those protesters were seemingly acting. To me, it looked quite peaceful up until the point where the officer decided to pepper spray them.

[Rage1331]

on Talkbass

[Lonesomedave]

Originally Posted by tastybasslines

In one article I read, a Police Chief said that pepper spray is a tool that is much preferable to use to break up crowds and is better than direct engagement like you are suggesting, which also keeps injury risk for the officers down by creating distance.

On a side note, I'm all for peaceful protesting, but these people are infringing on the rights of others by blocking public pathways, and that is not "peaceful". Go to a grassy area instead that allows people and students to continue their daily activities as they should be able to.

Words like "torture", and "extreme violence" just do not apply here.

i am with tasty here;

when you occupy public spaces and keep people who may or may agree with you from going about their business, that is NOT peaceful protest.

let them go to a park or other space where their protest will not impact others.

to protest in such a way that you impact the flow & the business of others is not peaceful protest, regardless of whether you use violence or not. if they were protesting peacefully (read: in such a way as to not inconvenience the public at large) i would say the use of pepper spray would be excessive, but if they had been doing that, i would bet it would have not been used.

your right to protest ends where my right to use the public spaces for their intended purpose begins.

[tastybasslines]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

What rights were they infringing on, exactly?

Did you watch the video? You have a group of people literally sitting down on what looks like a sidewalk of sorts, and then a cop comes up and maces them in the face. While you can't tell the whole story from the video alone, you can get a hint that the officer in question over reacted considering how placid those protesters were seemingly acting. To me, it looked quite peaceful up until the point where the officer decided to pepper spray them.

I thought I explained it clearly, but they are blocking the rights of all people on that campus by blocking a public walkway. Protest all you want in a place that does not affect others.

The police clearly cannot let them sit there forever, and although it needs to be confirmed, I'm assuming that they had been asked to move, and did not comply. That is also not "peaceful protest".

[jmattbassplaya]

Fair enough, although I will say that in this day and age you have to get in people's faces in order to be heard. Simply standing out in a field somewhere isn't going to draw attention to your cause. And honestly, I suspect we're going to be looking back on these protests in the next few months and see them as being peaceful. I have a feeling that this is just the tip of the iceberg of things to come.

[cheezewiz]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

What rights were they infringing on, exactly?

Did you watch the video? You have a group of people literally sitting down on what looks like a sidewalk of sorts, and then a cop comes up and maces them in the face. While you can't tell the whole story from the video alone, you can get a hint that the officer in question over reacted considering how placid those protesters were seemingly acting. To me, it looked quite peaceful up until the point where the officer decided to pepper spray them.

You're making a ton of assumptions.

[Lonesomedave]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

Fair enough, although I will say that in this day and age you have to get in people's faces in order to be heard. Simply standing out in a field somewhere isn't going to draw attention to your cause. And honestly, I suspect we're going to be looking back on these protests in the next few months and see them as being peaceful. I have a feeling that this is just the tip of the iceberg of things to come.

you are a reasonable person, so please don't take what i am about to say as flaming...but i must comment about the part of your post i have highlighted.

no, you don's HAVE to get in peoples' faces, you CHOOSE to get into peoples' faces. there is free will and what you are saying is, i can't get enough people to agree with me, so i must resort to any tactics that i think will work. (note- my use of the word "must" is theirs not mine) whether protesting out in a field would work or not depends upon YOU making your case, and these wet-behind-the-ears 60s wannabes have not made it.

and please don't confuse the fact that we may see more of these with most people agreeing with them. they do not represent the majority or even a sizable minority. this may be the tip of the iceberg as you call it, precisely because these nuts are such a small minority that they will become increasingly frustrated as their protests continually fall on deaf ears.

[jmattbassplaya]

I disagree. Of course a person chooses to get in someone's face - that I can't argue - but there is more reason for why someone would have to. These days everyone is walking around with their headphones on or with their cellphone attached to their ear. Everyone is distracted. Everyone is looking down when they walk. It's interesting walking around a college campus on a day to day basis and seeing how people conduct themselves. No one is aware of what's going on around them. You can have billboards with aborted fetuses on the side of Pedestrian Walkway and no one will notice them until some guy or girl on a megaphone starts yelling at the people walking by them. The game has changed. Simply being out there isn't going to get you recognition.

For the record, I don't agree with these protestors or their agenda, but I do find it somewhat queer that people would say that blocking a walkway somehow makes a protest not a peaceful one. They're doing it to get people to actually look up and take notice of what's going on. IMHO, more people need to look up and consider what's going on in the world around them right now.

[Lonesomedave]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

I disagree. Of course a person chooses to get in someone's face - that I can't argue - but there is more reason for why someone would have to. These days everyone is walking around with their headphones on or with their cellphone attached to their ear. Everyone is distracted. Everyone is looking down when they walk. It's interesting walking around a college campus on a day to day basis and seeing how people conduct themselves. No one is aware of what's going on around them. You can have billboards with aborted fetuses on the side of Pedestrian Walkway and no one will notice them until some guy or girl on a megaphone starts yelling at the people walking by them. The game has changed. Simply being out there isn't going to get you recognition.

For the record, I don't agree with these protestors or their agenda, but I do find it somewhat queer that people would say that blocking a walkway somehow makes a protest not a peaceful one. They're doing it to get people to actually look up and take notice of what's going on. IMHO, more people need to look up and consider what's going on in the world around them right now.

you say you disagree yet you make my point.

the protesters can't get people to take up their cause, so they resort to any tactics they think will work. don't like the apathy of your fellow students? convince them to change, with LEGITIMATE means...not with occupy ______ whatever movements that prevent the average person from going about her/his business.

what part of "protest, but don't block others who don't have your cause" don't you understand. if their protest inconveniences others, it is, per se, not peaceful.

[CityEscape]

Originally Posted by Lonesomedave

what part of "protest, but don't block others who don't have your cause" don't you understand. if their protest inconveniences others, it is, per se, not peaceful.

With all due respect, I disagree. The very purpose of a protest is to bring attention to a cause. This can be done several ways, but these can be grouped into two categories. Violent, and nonviolent. In the former category, protesters gain attention through deliberate harm to others, vandalization, etc. Blocking a public pathway (what looks to be a bike/walking pathway), I don't see as violent. Yes, it may "affect" others, but in the slightest possible way. That small group of people sitting down is no impassable obstacle. And Davis is the bike capital of California, and bikes work quite well on grass.

What is clear is that the protesters are not hurting anyone, nor are they damaging property. The only violence I can see is on the part of the officers. When the officers go in to grab protesters, they don't hit or swat at the officers, they just use gravity as a force against the cops, so there is clearly no violent protesting there.

Again, I say this with all due respect. I'm interested in what you have to say.

[tastybasslines]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

For the record, I don't agree with these protestors or their agenda, but I do find it somewhat queer that people would say that blocking a walkway somehow makes a protest not a peaceful one. They're doing it to get people to actually look up and take notice of what's going on.

So for whatever my cause, if I wanted to protest you, would I be allowed to sit on the PUBLIC sidewalk and block your driveway so you couldn't pull out your car? I mean, they can't remove me, as I am peacefully protesting, right?

Please don't be queer and not allow me my peaceful protest.

[UnsungZeros]

Originally Posted by tastybasslines

On a side note, I'm all for peaceful protesting, but these people are infringing on the rights of others by blocking public pathways, and that is not "peaceful". Go to a grassy area instead that allows people and students to continue their daily activities as they should be able to.

Just to be clear, the officer in the video in clearly seen spraying the individuals sitting in the grass as well.

I have my opinion on the matter, but I did want to just get that fact out there without someone latching onto my opinion while ignoring the presented fact.