Digital SLR experts - I need your help again....

[Tony G]

I've been posting on photo.net, but they aren't as quick to respond as you guys are here. I want to go the Digital SLR route, and this is what was suggested for beginners:

So, my basic recommendation for photography beginners is this very versatile and not-too-expensive kit: EOS body + kit zoom with IS (EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS) + EF 50mm f/1.8 prime + Speedlite 380EX or 420EX for bounce flash.

This looks pretty acceptable, but I don't understand a couple of things. This person recommended an EOS body + kit zoom with IS to start things off. What does the IS stand for? Is that image stabilization or something simliar? If it is, I can't find any cannon XTi kits that come with an IS lens. Am I misunderstanding and he is just talking about the lens that comes with this kit? http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...Rebel_XTi.html

Second, I can't seem to find anyone that sells the Speedlite models he is suggesting.

Also, if anyone has any good links on where I can get all of this stuff for great prices, that would be really helpful.

Thanks for any and all help you can provide. It is much appreciated.

EDIT: I should have mentioned in the original post that my wife and I are expecting our first child this spring, and we would like to purchase a new digital camera to take a lot of great baby shots, both outdoors, but more importantly indoors. I know very little about camera's, and how to take the best picture based on what light is available, but I'm very willing to learn. I currently have a KM Dimage Z2 that was given to me at my wedding in 2004. While for the most part I have been happy with it's pictures outdoors, its indoor pictures are pathetic. I'm open to all suggestions here. I would probably like to upgrade from the Dimage Z2 to an overall better camera. If going to a digital SLR is the way to do it, or if you have any other suggestions, please let me know.

[IanStephenson]

Looks reasonable - IS is Image Stabalisation, and I agree with you its not likley to be a feature of a kit lenses. You really don't need IS on a 18-55mm anyway - it only starts getting usefull as you go to longer focal lengths. The Kit lenses are generally disapointing, but on the other hand the bundle markup is only $50 over the body only, so there's not reason not to get it. 18-55mm withOUT IS is a standard kit lens, and while it's not exactly exciting, it's reasonable starting point.

I'm also deeply sceptical about putting money into EF-S lenses - they only work on a about 4 cameras, whereas EF lenses work on ANY EOS camera (film or digital). EF-S won't work on older EOS (like the 10D, or any film camera), or new EOS( like the 5D). I can live with that on a kit lens, but wouldn't want to sink $500+ into a quality lens that is obsolete when i upgrade the camera (camera's - particulary digital ones come and go - lenses are what does the work, so put money into them, and expect them to last).

I'd definatly agree to get the 50mm f/1.8 - they're a bargain (about $100), and give you GREAT performance compared to anything but the much more expensive lenses. The only problem is that 50mm is a little long on a low end DSLR (where it acts more like an 80mm on a 35mm film camera). However the 28mm f/1.8 is expensive (and VERY nice - much nicer than the 50 f/1.8, but at about 6 times the price), as is the 35m f/1.8. There's no reason not to have a 50mm prime in your bag.

I don't know about the flash - I've got a few old Metz Hammerheads that do serious blinding. It depends what you want to shoot, and how you like to work. We'd need more info to give better advice.

If you're going canon, then get whatever kit lens comes with the camera (likely an 18-55mm) because its not work the saving NOT to get it. Add a 50mm f/1.8 prime, and see how that works out for you... With the f/1.8 and 1600 film you can get away without flash for a lot of stuff.

Ian

[Ívar Þórólfsson]

Yes, IS stands for image stabilization. The kit lens in the package you linked does not have IS. There is though an IS version of the lens out there. It came out in august this year:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...arch&Q=*&bhs=t

But the package you linked to does not have that version of the lens.

The 18-55mm kit lens is not the greatest in the world, but it is a very good lens to begin with. It can take some damn fine pictures too -> http://www.dpchallenge.com/lens.php?LENS_ID=1275

The 420EX flash has been discontinued, look for the 430EX instead. You can also get a Sigma flash for the same price that has more features. Sigma EF-530 DG Super -> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...per_Flash.html

The 50mm EF f/1.8 prime is a good choice, it's a cheap fast lens and it is also very sharp.

Regarding great prices, well I can't recommend BHphotovideo enough. They are not the cheapest but the are extremely reliable and have excellent service.
Before you jump to the cheapest deal on the internet, look the vendor up on this page:
http://www.resellerratings.com/

There is a huge amount of bait&switch vendors out there that advertise extremely low prices but they are just scamming you.

BHphotovideo has a lifetime rating of 9.41 and a six month rating of 9.65 which is excellent. Be sure to check out all the user reviews on the store which you'll be buying from.

You should also check out a www.dpreview.com they have tons of reviews and pretty good forums.

If you have any more questions regarding dslr stuff, feel free to ask.

[robd]

I prefer Nikon gear to Canon just due to the backwards compatibility of all of their cameras with their older lenses.

also look on ebay, you can pick up a last generation DSLR for not much at all.

I just bought a D1 for $250

[Tony G]

Originally Posted by IanStephenson

It depends what you want to shoot, and how you like to work. We'd need more info to give better advice.

Thank you very much for your post. I should have mentioned in the original post that my wife and I are expecting our first child this spring, and we would like to purchase a new digital camera to take a lot of great baby shots, both outdoors, but more importantly indoors. I know very little about camera's, and how to take the best picture based on what light is available, but I'm very willing to learn. I currently have a KM Dimage Z2 that was given to me at my wedding in 2004. While for the most part I have been happy with it's pictures outdoors, its indoor pictures are pathetic. I'm open to all suggestions here. I would probably like to upgrade from the Dimage Z2 to an overall better camera. If going to a digital SLR is the way to do it, or if you have any other suggestions, please let me know.

[Tony G]

Originally Posted by Ívar Þórólfsson

Yes, IS stands for image stabilization. The kit lens in the package you linked does not have IS. There is though an IS version of the lens out there. It came out in august this year:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...arch&Q=*&bhs=t

But the package you linked to does not have that version of the lens.

The 18-55mm kit lens is not the greatest in the world, but it is a very good lens to begin with. It can take some damn fine pictures too -> http://www.dpchallenge.com/lens.php?LENS_ID=1275

The 420EX flash has been discontinued, look for the 430EX instead. You can also get a Sigma flash for the same price that has more features. Sigma EF-530 DG Super -> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...per_Flash.html

The 50mm EF f/1.8 prime is a good choice, it's a cheap fast lens and it is also very sharp.

Regarding great prices, well I can't recommend BHphotovideo enough. They are not the cheapest but the are extremely reliable and have excellent service.
Before you jump to the cheapest deal on the internet, look the vendor up on this page:
http://www.resellerratings.com/

There is a huge amount of bait&switch vendors out there that advertise extremely low prices but they are just scamming you.

BHphotovideo has a lifetime rating of 9.41 and a six month rating of 9.65 which is excellent. Be sure to check out all the user reviews on the store which you'll be buying from.

You should also check out a www.dpreview.com they have tons of reviews and pretty good forums.

If you have any more questions regarding dslr stuff, feel free to ask.

Thank you very much!!!! I really appreciate you going through and getting all this info to me.

[Ívar Þórólfsson]

Originally Posted by Tony G

Thank you very much for your post. I should have mentioned in the original post that my wife and I are expecting our first child this spring, and we would like to purchase a new digital camera to take a lot of great baby shots, both outdoors, but more importantly indoors. I know very little about camera's, and how to take the best picture based on what light is available, but I'm very willing to learn. I currently have a KM Dimage Z2 that was given to me at my wedding in 2004. While for the most part I have been happy with it's pictures outdoors, its indoor pictures are pathetic. I'm open to all suggestions here. I would probably like to upgrade from the Dimage Z2 to an overall better camera. If going to a digital SLR is the way to do it, or if you have any other suggestions, please let me know.

DSLR's are the way to go if you are willing to learn a bit about basic photography. That is exposure, ISO, shutter speed, aperture and stuff like that.
Canon has an advantage over Nikon in the high ISO department, that is canon images are less noiser.

But for this kind of low light photography, you want a camera that handles high ISO pretty well and a fast lens (f/2.8, f/1.8, f/1.4 for example). Then there is always the flash of course

[Tony G]

Originally Posted by Ívar Þórólfsson

Yes, IS stands for image stabilization. The kit lens in the package you linked does not have IS. There is though an IS version of the lens out there. It came out in august this year:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...arch&Q=*&bhs=t

But the package you linked to does not have that version of the lens.

The 18-55mm kit lens is not the greatest in the world, but it is a very good lens to begin with. It can take some damn fine pictures too -> http://www.dpchallenge.com/lens.php?LENS_ID=1275

Would you recommend getting the IS lens over the standard kit lens?

Originally Posted by Ívar Þórólfsson

The 420EX flash has been discontinued, look for the 430EX instead. You can also get a Sigma flash for the same price that has more features. Sigma EF-530 DG Super -> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...per_Flash.html

Yikes, flashes are expensive. Is it really worth getting a flash like this for good quality indoor shots of my child? Should I get a diffuser or anything like that, or just angle the flash up?

Originally Posted by Ívar Þórólfsson

The 50mm EF f/1.8 prime is a good choice, it's a cheap fast lens and it is also very sharp.

If I understand correctly, there is no zoom to this lens, correct? It is just a good inexpensive lens that lets in a lot of light for indoor shots?

[Tony G]

Originally Posted by Ívar Þórólfsson

DSLR's are the way to go if you are willing to learn a bit about basic photography. That is exposure, ISO, shutter speed, aperture and stuff like that.
Canon has an advantage over Nikon in the high ISO department, that is canon images are less noiser.

But for this kind of low light photography, you want a camera that handles high ISO pretty well and a fast lens (f/2.8, f/1.8, f/1.4 for example). Then there is always the flash of course

Yes, I am very willing to learn. I am so sick of having crappy pictures, and since it is very likely I'll be taking a million pictures of my first child, I want them to be as good as I can get without buying super proffesional gear.

[Ívar Þórólfsson]

Originally Posted by Tony G

Would you recommend getting the IS lens over the standard kit lens?

No, not really, there really is not much use for IS at this focal length. Especially when you are taking pictures of small children. The IS will stabilize the lens so you can take pictures at a very low shutter speed, but then the subject has to be completely stationary, children tend not to be stationary

Originally Posted by Tony G

Yikes, flashes are expensive. Is it really worth getting a flash like this for good quality indoor shots of my child? Should I get a diffuser or anything like that, or just angle the flash up?

You can never go wrong with a good flash really. I would begin with just buying the flash, you will soon see if you have the need for a diffuser or not. Most if not all flashes can angle up, except for the really cheap ones.

Originally Posted by Tony G

If I understand correctly, there is no zoom to this lens, correct? It is just a good inexpensive lens that lets in a lot of light for indoor shots?

That is correct.

[IanStephenson]

Originally Posted by Tony G

Thank you very much for your post. I should have mentioned in the original post that my wife and I are expecting our first child this spring, ... While for the most part I have been happy with it's pictures outdoors, its indoor pictures are pathetic. I'm open to all suggestions here.

First off - congrats! Our second is due in April. our first is 18months, and just had an awesome christmas! You're in for more work than you can imagine, but it's totally worth it.

The 50mm lens is definatly the way to go. If you set the "film" speed up to 800, with a bit of practise you'll be able to get good sharp shots indoors without flash using the f/1.8 lens (provided the room is reasonable bright) You'll mess a few shots up, but the ones you get will look great. Flash will look harsh, and intrusive, but if you can get some daylight coming through a window, even when its' not THAT bright, thats enough for a good prime lens. The heavier body of a DSLR also helps here, as it's easier to hold steady. What I said about the 50mm being a bit long will actually work nicely for you, as it'll frame your small subject better.

Ian

[Tony G]

Originally Posted by Ívar Þórólfsson

No, not really, there really is not much use for IS at this focal length. Especially when you are taking pictures of small children. The IS will stabilize the lens so you can take pictures at a very low shutter speed, but then the subject has to be completely stationary, children tend not to be stationary


You can never go wrong with a good flash really. I would begin with just buying the flash, you will soon see if you have the need for a diffuser or not. Most if not all flashes can angle up, except for the really cheap ones.



That is correct.

Great! Thanks!

[Josh Ryan]

Tony G

re: the 50mm EF f/1.8 prime

You do understand correctly. the cheap one has a plastic body and mount so just don't drop it!

[Tony G]

Originally Posted by IanStephenson

First off - congrats! Our second is due in April. our first is 18months, and just had an awesome christmas! You're in for more work than you can imagine, but it's totally worth it.

The 50mm lens is definatly the way to go. If you set the "film" speed up to 800, with a bit of practise you'll be able to get good sharp shots indoors without flash using the f/1.8 lens (provided the room is reasonable bright) You'll mess a few shots up, but the ones you get will look great. Flash will look harsh, and intrusive, but if you can get some daylight coming through a window, even when its' not THAT bright, thats enough for a good prime lens. The heavier body of a DSLR also helps here, as it's easier to hold steady. What I said about the 50mm being a bit long will actually work nicely for you, as it'll frame your small subject better.

Ian

Thanks Ian! I am very excited about our first child, but also reasonably nervous.

Thanks for the tips on f/1.8 lens, but what should I do about taking pictures inside when it is dark outside? Indoor lighting is usually very poor for taking pictures of course. Is that where this external flash comes in? Will the flash match up better with the 50mm or the 18mm-55mm kit lens better for these indoor night shots?

[Tony G]

Originally Posted by Blisshead

Tony G

re: the 50mm EF f/1.8 prime

You do understand correctly. the cheap one has a plastic body and mount so just don't drop it!

Haha, ok! Thanks!

[IanStephenson]

Originally Posted by Tony G

If I understand correctly, there is no zoom to this lens, correct? It is just a good inexpensive lens that lets in a lot of light for indoor shots?

Yep - a "Prime" lens means its a fixed focal length, while zoom lets you change it. Small focal lengths are wide angle, while big focal lengths are telephoto.

All things being equal it's just easier to make (for pretty obvious reasons) a lens that can't zoom over one that can. Prime's went out of fashion among amauter photographers because of the convenience of zooms, but for a given price point a prime will out perform a zoom massivly.

F/1.8 means that the prime lens gathers about 10 times as much light as an f/5.6 zoom!!!! Thats why primes are the secret weapon of low light photography. Also to get something as sharp as the 50mm prime in a zoom you'd need to go to the canon pro series lenses...

Ian

[Tony G]

Originally Posted by IanStephenson

Yep - a "Prime" lens means its a fixed focal length, while zoom lets you change it. Small focal lengths are wide angle, while big focal lengths are telephoto.

All things being equal it's just easier to make (for pretty obvious reasons) a lens that can't zoom over one that can. Prime's went out of fashion among amauter photographers because of the convenience of zooms, but for a given price point a prime will out perform a zoom massivly.

F/1.8 means that the prime lens gathers about 10 times as much light as an f/5.6 zoom!!!! Thats why primes are the secret weapon of low light photography. Also to get something as sharp as the 50mm prime in a zoom you'd need to go to the canon pro series lenses...

Ian

Wow, interesting stuff. Sounds like the f/1.8 should vastly improve the quality of my indoor pics!

[IanStephenson]

Originally Posted by Tony G

Thanks Ian! I am very excited about our first child, but also reasonably nervous.

Thanks for the tips on f/1.8 lens, but what should I do about taking pictures inside when it is dark outside? Indoor lighting is usually very poor for taking pictures of course. Is that where this external flash comes in? Will the flash match up better with the 50mm or the 18mm-55mm kit lens better for these indoor night shots?

The camera will automatically adjust the flash to match the lenses requirements (at least technically - aesthetics are another matter). Again the prime can still help, as it collects light better - you need less flash to get the same effect. Bouncing th flash by pointing it at the ceiling helps here - thats the main thing you can't do wit the internal flash. Depending on your lighting you MIGHT get away without flash (also depends on the style you want). Try it and see.

Ian

p.s. For more cash you can get the 50mm in an F/1.4 whihc collects 50% more light than the 1.8, or even an f1/2 ($2000+ I think). Trouble is focusing gets more critical so it's not really practical for a lot of stuff.

[Tony G]

Originally Posted by IanStephenson

The camera will automatically adjust the flash to match the lenses requirements (at least technically - aesthetics are another matter). Again the prime can still help, as it collects light better - you need less flash to get the same effect. Bouncing th flash by pointing it at the ceiling helps here - thats the main thing you can't do wit the internal flash. Depending on your lighting you MIGHT get away without flash (also depends on the style you want). Try it and see.

Ian

Cool, thanks. I'll probably just go ahead and order a flash when I order the XTi and f/1.8 lens, but I'll think about it some more.

[middy]

Sometimes natural light is great, sometimes it's crap. It's good to have both options, a flash and a fast prime. But a realistically priced prime isn't that fast. f1.8 is only 2 stops faster than f3.5. In a room without bright lights at night you're still going to have some trouble capturing a moving child without a bunch of high-ISO noise or noise-reduction effects.

Lighting is important, and it's the one thing that internet "experts" tend to overlook. A properly bounced or off-camera flash can often give you better results than natural light and will always make it easier to capture motion while maintaining a decent ISO. Personally, I'd get a decent flash before a prime.