Do I have this right?

Masher88 · #1 10-30-2008, 04:09 PM

Is our police force a form of socialism? What about Libraries? Public Schools? Fire Department? Social Security Checks? Medicare/ Medicaid? Roadwork? The Armed Forces? Anything we pay taxes on?

Am I getting this wrong? Using money from the people in a society to pay for things we need?

EricF · #2 10-30-2008, 04:42 PM

So...what's your question exactly?

Trevorus · #3 10-30-2008, 04:45 PM

Not quite. I can see where you would get that. Taxes that pay for services and things like that are at least giving us something back. Socialism involves the gov't taking money and distributing it as it sees fit to other people. It's basically like trying to level the economic playing field, which really never works. Thing is, economic freedom and economic equality are mutually exclusive.

Pilgrim · #4 10-30-2008, 04:46 PM

It may be productive to go online and check definitions of Socialism before responding. Many of the associations people tend to make with the term are not accurate.

Here's what online Merriam-Webster offers:
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

It's clearly established that taxes pay for services which are agreed through our governance process to be of general social benefit.

Some consider ANY use of citizen money to benefit others to be Socialism, but many do not.

Rather than arguing terminology, IMO the productive debate should be around (1) what taxes, (2) how many taxes, and (3) what they are used for.

There WILL be taxes in a society structured as ours is. Arguing about polarizing terms used to identify them is, IMHO, not productive.

Pilgrim · #5 10-30-2008, 04:50 PM

And here's a dancing hamster!

baalroo · #6 10-30-2008, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

Here's what online Merriam-Webster offers:
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

Well, based on this I would say the answers to the OP would be:

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and sometimes(respectively).

Masher88 · #7 10-30-2008, 05:08 PM

I'm not trying to argue any point. Just trying to get the terminology straight since it is being thrown around like beads at Mardi Gras.

I went to the dictionary first, but things read easier when they are put in simple terms and use examples.

So, what is the correct term for our society? A social/capitalist/democratic/republic?

iamlowsound · #8 10-30-2008, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masher88

I'm not trying to argue any point. Just trying to get the terminology straight since it is being thrown around like beads at Mardi Gras.

I went to the dictionary first, but things read easier when they are put in simple terms and use examples.

So, what is the correct term for our society? A social/capitalist/democratic/republic?

About that, although you could argue that none of those apply.

lowsound

Georynn · #9 10-30-2008, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masher88

I'm not trying to argue any point. Just trying to get the terminology straight since it is being thrown around like beads at Mardi Gras.

I went to the dictionary first, but things read easier when they are put in simple terms and use examples.

So, what is the correct term for our society? A social/capitalist/democratic/republic?

A representative republic.

iamthebassplayr · #10 10-30-2008, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masher88

So, what is the correct term for our society? A social/capitalist/democratic/republic?

From what I remember in school, Socialism and Capitalism are separate from the other two. They are forms of economic theories, where the other two, while commonly tied with an economic theory, are instead forms of government.

They intermingled and intertwined a lot, but they are separate things still.

Democracies often have capitalistic based economies because of the general principles of individualist freedom.

I think

Masher88 · #11 10-30-2008, 06:00 PM

I think this explains everything quite nicely!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o76WQzVJ434

Stumbo · #12 10-30-2008, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

The U.S. gov't doesn't own the means of production and distribution of goods.

In socialist countries, the gov't may own all production facilities: oil, manufacturing, etc. And then own the trains, plains and trucks that deliver the goods.

baalroo · #13 10-30-2008, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stumbo

The U.S. gov't doesn't own the means of production and distribution of goods.

In socialist countries, the gov't may own all production facilities: oil, manufacturing, etc. And then own the trains, plains and trucks that deliver the goods.

I don't think the lack of "and services" from that definition is really an indicator that socialism does not include the idea of government controlled service sectors as well, I would say "goods" in this context was meant as a simpler term for "commodity," but this differentiation between goods and services is a good point that I would be interested to hear others opinions on.

ducknturtle · #14 10-30-2008, 06:43 PM

Yes you are getting it wrong!

Masher88 · #15 10-30-2008, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ducknturtle

Yes you are getting it wrong!

wait...so tax dollars being used for public services (police, fire dept. etc.) is not a form of socialism? Then, what is that called?

Socialism only refers to goods (products, consumables)?

It doesn't help to educate people by just telling them they are wrong, and not correcting them.

**HeavyDuty** · #16 10-30-2008, 07:15 PM

Thanks to all for keeping partisan politics out of this thread and staying in the realm of general discussion.

Masher88 · #17 10-31-2008, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeavyDuty

Thanks to all for keeping partisan politics out of this thread and staying in the realm of general discussion.

That is the intent of the thread all along. I am just curious as to what "socialism" actually is. Seeing as I can't seem to stop hearing that word lately

Deacon_Blues · #18 10-31-2008, 06:13 AM

I didn't check any dictionary, but to me, all taxes that are paid in order to keep up a working society is not socialism. Socialism is TMOU (to my own understanding) sort of the government's way in funding the basic needs of the people, using tax money. Then, how you define the basic needs are politics and let's not go there in this discussion.

roberthelpus · #19 10-31-2008, 07:25 AM

Good on you for asking this question. Like "terrorist" now, and "communist" back in the day, the "socialist" sobriquet is so often thrown around by people that have no idea what it means. I had a conversation with an uneducated woman where I was working a couple of years back where she used "communist" as a pejorative. When asked if she knew what communism is, she replied "Well thems the bad people."

Probably what spurred your question is that it seems that progressive taxation within a capitalist system is what is being called (rightly or wrongly) socialism currently.

Beta · #20 10-31-2008, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Georynn

A representative republic.

No, it's a constitutional republic.