Do I need a phono preamp?

Ben Lesser · #1 04-19-2009, 01:00 PM

I recently put a turntable system together, thanks to my aunt and uncle giving me some of their old/unused equipment.

I'm running an older (80's?) Technics direct-drive turntable (SL-Q200), until a Yamaha HTR-6130 receiver, and out into a couple of older Bose 201 speakers.

The sound is fantastic on the the radio, with a great bass response. However, the receiver doesn't have a dedicated phono input on it, so I'm getting a pretty significant signal loss between the radio and the turntable, and a loss of bottom-end response. I know it's not the speakers, because I can clearly hear it when listening to the radio, or running my iPod through it.

Medium-loud on the radio is around -65dbs, but I have to turn it up to -15dbs or so when using the turntable.

It was recommended to me that a phono preamp would fix my problems, so I figured I check here for a second opinion. Is this what I need? And if so, can anyone make some decent-priced recommendations on one to get? I'm not looking to exceed $75 CAD, if possible.

I found this one, which seems like it would do the trick, but I have no idea about these sorts of things.

fdeck · #2 04-19-2009, 01:16 PM

Yes you need a phono preamp if the receiver doesn't have a phono input. This is because phono needs a particular EQ curve.

jucas · #3 04-19-2009, 01:17 PM

Can't recomend anything, but I'm going to watch the thread because I have a friend that needs to pick one up.

Aside from the boost, I think that phono preamps usually had preset equalization to cut highs/boost lows because vinyl couldn't really deal with low Hz signals... so, if you just turn up a different input you should expect the loss of lows you had.

At least, thats what I've read... so I'd guess that even a cheap phono pre is going to sound allright compared to not having one.

Ben Lesser · #4 04-19-2009, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fdeck

Yes you need a phono preamp if the receiver doesn't have a phono input. This is because phono needs a particular EQ curve.

Okay, cool. Can you recommend anything in particular?

b_carville · #5 04-19-2009, 01:28 PM

Yeah,you will need one.

There are some cheaper ones.Companies like Recoton & Numark may still make them for $29.95.If I remember correctly Rolls makes one too.Musicians Friend may have the Rolls.

If you have a store(s) in your area that caters to DJ's give them a call.Check the Best Buy's as well.Sometimes they will be tucked away in the accessories near the Audio section.

Here's a few good online dealers.

KAB turntables.

Garage A records.

J&R Music World.
The last few years I've noticed the return of Phono inputs on recievers.

fdeck · #6 04-19-2009, 03:28 PM

I was thinking of getting something to finally get all of my LP's into digital format. This one seems like the low price special:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...&tab=techSpecs

But, signal-to-noise is only 70 dB. Only the Behringer is worse, at 68 dB. This one has 80 dB SNR:

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_057ATPE...h=phono+preamp

Ben Lesser · #7 04-19-2009, 04:50 PM

What's the significance of the signal to noise ratio? Higher is better?

Brick Top · #8 04-19-2009, 05:04 PM

Those cheapy Phone preamps will work...but not really intended for sound quality.

If you just want the turntable to make decent sound...then just pick up one of the $20 units. If you want to have a better chance of realizing the benefits of vinyl...then spend a few bucks on a good one.

I recommend you look around first:

http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merc...tegory_Code=PP

I use a Jolida JD9A with a tube phono stage....and thats alot of bang for the buck for sonic bliss. Less than $400!

Cheers,
BT

Ben Lesser · #9 04-19-2009, 05:12 PM

Most of that stuff is way out of my price range.

I'm all for good sound, but I'm not looking to spend an arm and a leg hear. Just trying to bring up the volume up my turntable and get some bass response into it.

iamlowsound · #10 04-19-2009, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Lesser

Most of that stuff is way out of my price range.

I'm all for good sound, but I'm not looking to spend an arm and a leg hear. Just trying to bring up the volume up my turntable and get some bass response into it.

Most of that stuff there is dirt cheap for stereo stuff. I am putting my stereo together slowly because it is so expensive.

lowsound

Jim Campbell · #11 04-19-2009, 07:58 PM

moving coil cartridges usually need a boost too......over and above the phono input......

fdeck · #12 04-19-2009, 08:03 PM

It's not just a boost. Vinyl discs are recorded with an EQ curve that must be reversed upon playback so the overall frequency response from recording to playback is flat.

thobbinghotrod · #13 04-19-2009, 08:11 PM

Yep, "moving coil" versus "moving magnet" coils need different levels of boost/EQ. It should say on the turntable.

Jim Campbell · #14 04-19-2009, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fdeck

It's not just a boost. Vinyl discs are recorded with an EQ curve that must be reversed upon playback so the overall frequency response from recording to playback is flat.

are you refering to the dedicated phono input or the difference between outputs of moving coil moving magnet cartridges?the way it was explained to me is that mc carts track better but the trade off is output,hence the need for a pre pre.......the phono/eq part i get.....jc

Brick Top · #15 04-19-2009, 08:35 PM

Just to clarify...moving magnet generally has a higher output than most moving coil cartridges. There are high output moving coils which is what I use...that can work well with a standard phonostage(preamp). You most likely have a moving magnet...and any old phono preamp will work for that. If you have a moving coil cartridge...then a phono stage with an MC input is essential.

Moving coil cartridges tend to sound better to many vinyl people. But there are also many good moving magnets on the market which sound great. Take a look at Grado for a cheap great moving magnet cartridge. Not too heavy in the bottom, and not too bright. Since your gear was a hand me down...a new cartridge is probably in order as well.

The turntable you have has has nothing to do with whether a cartridge is an MM or a MC....either type of cartridge can be fitted to any turntable.

Cheers,
BT

fdeck · #16 04-19-2009, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Campbell

are you refering to the dedicated phono input or the difference between outputs of moving coil moving magnet cartridges?the way it was explained to me is that mc carts track better but the trade off is output,hence the need for a pre pre.......the phono/eq part i get.....jc

I am referring to the dedicated phono input. There is an additional difference between MC and MM cartridges, that the MC cart has a much lower impedance and weaker output signal that requires an additional boost. An audio book that I own, which still talks about phonographs, recommends a step-up transformer for MM cartridges.

sonic assassin · #17 04-20-2009, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fdeck

It's not just a boost. Vinyl discs are recorded with an EQ curve that must be reversed upon playback so the overall frequency response from recording to playback is flat.

there are massive cuts/boosts at (if i remember correctly) 50 hz and 15 kHz in order to make a groove to keep the needle in place.

there is also this to make the overall sound better.

there is an art to mastering on vinyl. getting everything to play back correctly is extemely difficult. i really dont understand remastered records.. it was MEANT to be played on a phonograph.. dont master it for CD.

Brick Top · #18 04-20-2009, 08:07 AM

[quote=sonic assassin;7282697i really dont understand remastered records.. it was MEANT to be played on a phonograph.. dont master it for CD.[/QUOTE]

Remastering means remastering from the master tapes---preferrably from the first generation...but thats not always possible. Many lp's have been remastered recently...and it is usually a very good job...but not always. Speakers Corner remastered Supertramps Crime of the century on vinyl...which was already a near perfect LP...and they turned it into a sonic bliss.

Classic records have remstered the Led Zepplin library on vinyl...and now I actually enjoy listening to their music. The cd's that Page remastered sound like crap though.

Cheers,
BT

Philbiker · #19 04-20-2009, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fdeck

I was thinking of getting something to finally get all of my LP's into digital format. This one seems like the low price special:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...&tab=techSpecs

But, signal-to-noise is only 70 dB. Only the Behringer is worse, at 68 dB. This one has 80 dB SNR:

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_057ATPE...h=phono+preamp

All of these are greater than the paltry S/N ratio you'll actually get from vinyl. Check J and R music world.

Philbiker · #20 04-20-2009, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Lesser

Most of that stuff is way out of my price range.

I'm all for good sound, but I'm not looking to spend an arm and a leg hear. Just trying to bring up the volume up my turntable and get some bass response into it.

Huh? The cheapest phono preamp on that page is under $30! What are your expectations here?