Education, unemployment and income

[Pilgrim]

For some reason, the practicality and wisdom of pursuing higher education is often discussed here. I just got a bit of info that puts it in perspective (source-Bureaus of the Census and Labor Statistics):



Take a look. On the LEFT side (yellow) is the 2009 unemployment rate for people with the level of education in the center (blue). The mean earnings in 2008 are shown on the right (green).

The story is clear. Among those without a high school diploma, the unemployment rate is more than 14%..closer to 15%. A 2-year degree drops it to about 7%, and a 4-year degree drops it to about 5%.

Mean earnings are SIGNIFICANTLY higher as you move up the scale to 2-year and 4-year degrees. I personally find those earning numbers a little on the high side, but the DIFFERENCE is what's important.

Now, I know that there are TB members who are ready to pursue a degree in music and abandon everything else. God bless ya, good luck, etc. Just be informed about what you're facing, and consider carefully what level of education you should pursue - regardless of your love for music - in order to position yourself for a lifestyle that you find attractive.

It's possible to play a lot of music and continue your education. Think about it.

[Vorago]

I'd like to see a stat that compares the unemployment rate of say a master in engineering with the rate of a master in English literature, or some other vague human sciences degree.

I for one am stuck between jobs that require a degree and jobs that don't.

If I apply for (for instance) a job at the city government to organize cultural events, or any other job that specifically asks for a ba or ma degree, I ALWAYS get the reply 'we're sorry, but you don't have any experience'.

(I've been studying my *** off the last 5 years, where should I have gathered experience meanwhile?)

If I apply for store attendant in a camping store (which doesn't require a degree), they ship me off because I have a Ma, and they know that I'm out of there the moment someone offers me something better than selling camping gear.

So kids, get a degree in something RELEVANT.

[Mark Latimour]

Vorago - in the UK a "general" humanities degree is very highly valued by employers. A large percentage of the lawyers I work with have as their primary undergraduate degree a arts degree in a general subject (history / philosophy / fine arts) etc. I think it would need to be broken up by country since in the UK the "vague" degrees are highly valued. This was defintely not the case in Australia (for example) where as Master of Arts was worth very little to prospective employers.

[CrispyDelicious]

I'm waiting for someone to come in, say the study is meaningless and funded by a biased party, then say that anyone can be successful without a degree just look at Jim/Dave/Bob who became a millionaire through hard work so that obviously disproves this silly chart I mean jeez who believes this stuff anyways you sheeple need to open your eyes etc. etc.

That about right?

[Selta]

Statistics can be (and often are) bent to mean whatever the agenda is of the study.

[i_got_a_mohawk]

2008 was a long time ago in this economy . . .

[jmattbassplaya]

Good stuff.

The only issue I have with these charts is that they seem to imply that once you reach a certain level of education you're almost guaranteed employment paying such-and-such amount. The problem with this is that the number of jobs that require a masters, doctoral, or professional degree are very limited in number, whereas the number of people obtaining such degrees is growing exponentially. What this entails is that there is a wider pool of workers that employers can choose from - which often lowers the salary of any position. It's the whole, "if you don't want this job there's about 100 other people willing to take your place."

I remember discussing opportunity costs in relation to this very chart (or one similar) in one of my economics classes a year ago. After reviewing the data it became apparent that obtaining a masters degree was the 'best' option for most college students, since you would end up making roughly the same amount over the course of your lifetime as those with doctoral and professional degrees once you factored in the costs of furthering your education that much more. This shouldn't be taken as an absolute fact, however, since a lot of factors play a role in determining the opportunity costs for each individual person.

When you relate this back to what I was saying with the ever growing pool of workers with bachelors and masters degrees, it seems reasonable that everyone who is able should try to reach the next level of education in order to 'stand out' from the competition. However, you then have cases where receiving a masters or doctorate has done little in helping someone obtain employment simply because they don't have any experience in the field.

Anyways, I said all of that to say this to anyone currently going through their higher education years - Obtain your degree and pursue a masters and doctorate if possible, but do not consider this enough to obtain employment. Do everything in your power to work a job related to your field while you're in school, or try to do a co-op or an internship. The hands-on experience is a must for most employers in this economy.

[EBodious]

Originally Posted by i_got_a_mohawk

2008 was a long time ago in this economy . . .

a recent story on NPR was discussing unemployment rates based on education levels. it said pretty much what the chart shows. but also mentioned that across the strata, all unemployment has roughly doubled (in u.s.a.). of course, that is much worse for high school drop outs than for advanced degree folks.

all that said, i have a B.A. in music theory. i have never worked in that business, but i have always been able to get some kind of job. usually always earning less than what the chart suggests. i know the struggle of being over-qualified or under-experienced. it is an awkward place to be. i currently need a new job, but am dubious of going looking cause i know so many people who have recently been let go. i feel lucky to be working at all....

[MJ5150]

That report was put together by "the american society of people who want you to go to college".

-Mike

[Chebass88]

Thanks for posting this. It reminds me why I am getting my Masters currently.

I'd also like to see further comparison of degrees by topic - I just am too lazy to sort through the BLS data right now.

[Mark Latimour]

Originally Posted by MJ5150

That report was put together by "the american society of people who want you to go to college".

-Mike

Parents?

[Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by Vorago

I'd like to see a stat that compares the unemployment rate of say a master in engineering with the rate of a master in English literature, or some other vague human sciences degree.

[snip]

So kids, get a degree in something RELEVANT.

That's a really good point! Within the levels of education, there are clearly fields of expertise which have different levels of competition for jobs and employment. With cutbacks in support for public-funded education, I have observed faculty losses in some of the humanities, and also cutbacks in high-cost degrees.

There is an emerging movement in higher ed to raise tuition in high cost degrees like Engineering, so labs and higher salaries for those faculty members can be supported. That's not happening in the humanities.

[guitar ed]

Keep in mind that the chart shows averages, not individual realities.

Of course the degree you have matters, as does where you live & work. A Ph.D. in mathematics might not be worth much in Detroit, but it's gold in Silicon Valley.

edg

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Originally Posted by guitar ed

Keep in mind that the chart shows averages, not individual realities.

Of course the degree you have matters, as does where you live & work. A Ph.D. in mathematics might not be worth much in Detroit, but it's gold in Silicon Valley.

edg

Actually, a PhD in mathematics (or theoretical physics) is useful practically anywhere, quite a high number of people with such qualifications move into high positions in banking or accounting. (They have problem solving skills far beyond the average accountant).

Not to mention some of the starting salaries I've seen have been nuts . . . £95,000 for someone fresh out of university!!

[Pilgrim]

Want to know how to get a job in Silicon Valley? Get a Master's in Statistics. Many of the tools used to build chips use heavy-duty statistics.

That's why I'm not in da chip industry - Stats make my head hurt. The fact that I passed grad level stats is a testament to the fact that we can achieve almost anything if we try hard enough.

[buzzbass]

My career has made a mockery of that chart

[Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by buzzbass

My career has made a mockery of that chart

There are always exceptions for the brilliant!

[spade2you]

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

Want to know how to get a job in Silicon Valley? Get a Master's in Statistics. Many of the tools used to build chips use heavy-duty statistics.

That's why I'm not in da chip industry - Stats make my head hurt. The fact that I passed grad level stats is a testament to the fact that we can achieve almost anything if we try hard enough.

There are still jobs in various areas, but the work and the degree is very difficult. Even in this economy, these jobs tend to be secure. I think a problem with a certain amount of the unemployed college grads was expecting a nice paying job that's easy to obtain.

[Selta]

Originally Posted by buzzbass

My career has made a mockery of that chart

So far, mine has as well, but my career is still relatively young, as well.

[Selta]

One other thing this chart doesn't show at all is localization. What areas are the High School grads in versus the Ph.Ds? This mostly has an impact on the right side of the chart, but it's not one that can/should be ignored.