The ethics of climbing Mt. Everest

[bassrique]

I've seen conflicting reports of the mortality rate of those attempting to summit Mt. Everest. A death rate of 10% to as high as 40% is what I've read. Most die near the top in what's known as the "death zone". It's not the high winds, low temperatures or falls that kill the majority, but rather the lack of oxygen.

OK, so let's say summiting Everest has been your dream for years and you've trained hard and spent considerable money for the endeavor. From this stems a problem. What to do when someone becomes incapacitated? From what I can gather, if you're up high enough and your mind and or body fails, you're on your own, at least very often. I've been reading various tales of climbers walking right by or even stepping over incapacitated adventurers. "Summit fever" they call it. The desire to reach the top is so strong that nothing else matters. Frozen mummified corpses litter Everest. Such images are not appropriate for TB, so some of my reading can't be linked to.

Here is a story of a man that was not left to die [well actually he was, but not by everyone].

http://www.rd.com/health/hiker-left-...mount-everest/

EDIT:

Even Sir Edmund Hillary, the first to reach Everest’s summit in 1953, chimed in with disgust when he learned that 40 climbers had passed by Britain’s David Sharp.

“People have completely lost sight of what is important,” he told a New Zealand newspaper. “In our expedition, there was never any likelihood whatsoever if one member of the party was incapacitated that we would just leave him to die.”

[Muzoid]

I watch 'Everest' shows all the time, I'm not a climber by any means, but they certainly fascinate me.

As far as I know, all climbers realize, before even starting, that it is extremely dangerous to try an save an incapacitated climber...this is known as the an unwritten law of Everest, K2 and alike.

If a climber decides to save another, the chances of them both dying as a result is a very real possibility.

"what goes up, must come down...except on Everest"

It must suck for climbers to have to leave another climber there...

[SoComSurfing]

That's why you take a guided expedition ONLY from a reputable company. Some send as many as 7 sherpas/guides for every paid climber, and only summit 2-3 customers per day from the group of 15 or so. Those who summit with reputable guide companies usually have a team of 4 per climber who are there strictly to assist by carrying your extra weight and monitor your health. There are WAY too many out there who think they can make the last few hundred meters themselves because they have done Denali, Aconcagua, Vinson, etc. Everest is a totally different beast.

I've been researching Everest summits for about a year now and am considering setting a goal for myself to do the trek before my 40th birthday (28 this summer).

[bassrique]

Originally Posted by SoComSurfing

That's why you take a guided expedition ONLY from a reputable company. Some send as many as 7 sherpas/guides for every paid climber, and only summit 2-3 customers per day from the group of 15 or so. Those who summit with reputable guide companies usually have a team of 4 per climber who are there strictly to assist by carrying your extra weight and monitor your health. There are WAY too many out there who think they can make the last few hundred meters themselves because they have done Denali, Aconcagua, Vinson, etc. Everest is a totally different beast.

I've been researching Everest summits for about a year now and am considering setting a goal for myself to do the trek before my 40th birthday (28 this summer).

What's the training for such a task like? What about the financial requirements?

[bassrique]

Originally Posted by Muzoid

I watch 'Everest' shows all the time, I'm not a climber by any means, but they certainly fascinate me.

As far as I know, all climbers realize, before even starting, that it is extremely dangerous to try an save an incapacitated climber...this is known as the an unwritten law of Everest, K2 and alike.

If a climber decides to save another, the chances of them both dying as a result is a very real possibility.

"what goes up, must come down...except on Everest"

It must suck for climbers to have to leave another climber there...

I understand that in extreme cases, there is an unwritten rule, but it also seems like there are too many cases were the fallen could be saved, and aren't.

I think it's a cooler tale to tell your grandkids that you didn't summit Everest because you were too busy saving a life. Walking past a dying man [when there's hope] because of blind ambition just makes me sick.

[SoComSurfing]

Originally Posted by bassrique

What's the training for such a task like? What about the financial requirements?

Financial Commitment:

Land Costs
$65,000

Payments
Deposit: $20,000 due upon registration
Balance: $45,000 due 120 days prior to departure
Please note if you would like to pay the deposit or the balance with a credit
card a 2.7% surcharge will be added to your balance.

Refunds: NO REFUNDS are provided on the deposit or payments for this expedition.

Note: Acceptance based on prior experience. Enrollment is confirmed upon receipt of deposit. A complete confirmation package is forwarded to all members in conjunction with multiple email and phone briefings. Detailed gear lists, logistics and training information are available upon request.

Expedition costs include:
· All accommodations in Kathmandu before the expedition (from March 28, 2011).
· Tents will be provided during the trek and climb.
· All food during the trek and climb. No expense is spared in providing high quality food from the USA and Nepal. If you have particular dietary requirements, please give us specific details and we will accommodate your needs!
· All transportation in Nepal, including round-trip flights from Kathmandu to Lukla/Syangboche.
· All group equipment needed to reach base camp and climb the mountain: cooking gear, fuel, stoves, ropes, all forms of rock and ice protection, radio communications, oxygen, medical supplies, etc.
· Sherpa, porters, liaison officer, camp staff and guides.
· All administration fees owed to Nepal, including climbing permit.
· 1 night's lodging in Kathmandu post-climb.

Expedition costs do not include:
· $25 Wire Transfer Fee (If Applicable)
· International round-trip airfare (USA-Nepal-USA).
· Meals in Kathmandu and hotels after the climb (once the climber has left the mountain).
· Personal gear, clothing and sleeping equipment (see gear list).
· Insurance. A comprehensive medical insurance policy is required to embark on this expedition.
· Trip cancellation insurance. This is highly recommended and can be purchased through Alpine Ascents. (see below)
· Comprehensive medical exam. A physician signed Medical Release Form is required.
·Alcoholic beverages and bottled drinks.
·All expenses incurred in the event of early departure ( evac fees, transport, extra hotel nights, etc).
· Personal Items.
· Charges incurred as a result of delays beyond the control of Alpine Ascents International.
· Personal communication (phone, fax, e-mail) between Nepal and home country.
· A Medical Evacuation Insurance Policy is mandatory. Available through Alpine Ascents. (see below)



Physical Conditioning:

PREREQUISITES

Climbing Skill Level
Climbers prepared to take on Everest should have completed at least a week long training course and have completed a series of high altitude climbs such as Denali, Aconcagua, Cho-Oyu and Vinson. We will review each climbers bio on an individual basis to help develop climbers interested in attempting Everest.

Physical Conditioning
In the best interest of personal safety, success and team compatibility, adequate training and excellent physical condition are required. Prior experience carrying a heavy pack for multiple days serves as excellent preparation for this climb. Climbers must be able to carry an average of 30lbs or more and be physically and mentally prepared to deal with strenuous situations at high altitudes. Climbers need to be in excellent physical condition for both personal enjoyment and to be an integral team member. We encourage you to contact us so that we may assist you in developing a training program that meets your particular needs. Comprehensive training information can be found here.

[Muzoid]

Originally Posted by bassrique

I understand that in extreme cases, there is an unwritten rule, but it also seems like there are too many cases were the fallen could be saved, and aren't.

I think it's a cooler tale to tell your grandkids that you didn't summit Everest because you were too busy saving a life. Walking past a dying man [when there's hope] because of blind ambition just makes me sick.

Oh, I agree.....

There isn't really a less extreme at Everest....just extreme, more extreme....and extremely extreme

I would atleast try to save someone.....but at the same time...look at the money and prep involved...for some climbers it's a lifetime dream...be a shame if some climber that refused to take oxygen, or simply didn't have the gonads for it to get in the way.

The rule is there for a reason, and all climbers know it, and respect it.

It's easy for us here in our warm comfy homes to sit there and say "aw man, he could have been saved"...but Everest is a different world altogether, not just a pile of rock and snow.

[Deluge Of Sound]

Everest is something I, as a mere over-developed monkey, can't possibly fathom. Literally standing on top of the world seems absolutely mindblowing.



That said, I feel the same way about the vast emptiness that is Iowa/Nebraska/The Great Plains of America. YMMV.

[bassrique]

Good info SoCom.

Originally Posted by Muzoid

Oh, I agree.....

There isn't really a less extreme at Everest....just extreme, more extreme....and extremely extreme

I would atleast try to save someone.....but at the same time...look at the money and prep involved...for some climbers it's a lifetime dream...be a shame if some climber that refused to take oxygen, or simply didn't have the gonads for it to get in the way.

The rule is there for a reason, and all climbers know it, and respect it.

It's easy for us here in our warm comfy homes to sit there and say "aw man, he could have been saved"...but Everest is a different world altogether, not just a pile of rock and snow.

I know it's easy for me to be pious, but the article I linked to provided an example of a missed opportunity.

[Waterpilot]

Originally Posted by bassrique

I understand that in extreme cases, there is an unwritten rule, but it also seems like there are too many cases were the fallen could be saved, and aren't.

Ever done any mountaineering? I have on a much smaller scale and that was extremely difficult. At the time I was only a few years removed from the Marine Corps, was rock climbing constantly, river kayaking, and was a whitewater river guide. I didn't smoke, drink or do any drugs. Summiting takes a lot of energy and food rations aren't that big. Getting to the top with your own gear is tough but I couldn't imagine getting around with 150 to 200 pounds of incapacitated man.

Long story short... It's not as easy to save peeps on a mountian as some may think.

[bassrique]

Originally Posted by Waterpilot

Ever done any mountaineering? I have on a much smaller scale and that was extremely difficult. At the time I was only a few years removed from the Marine Corps, was rock climbing constantly, river kayaking, and was a whitewater river guide. I didn't smoke, drink or do any drugs. Summiting takes a lot of energy and food rations aren't that big. Getting to the top with your own gear is tough but I couldn't imagine getting around with 150 to 200 pounds of incapacitated man.

Long story short... It's not as easy to save peeps on a mountian as some may think.

Like I said, it's easy for me to judge, but the story I linked to does raise questions.

Right now I'm watching the National Geographic documentary, "The Dark Side of Everest" [easily found on the net]. It raises the same questions. I can't say for sure what I'd do up there, but if you can help a poor soul, and don't because you want to take pictures from the summit, you're scum in my book.

[Muzoid]

Originally Posted by bassrique

Like I said, it's easy for me to judge, but the story I linked to does raise questions.

Right now I'm watching the National Geographic documentary, "The Dark Side of Everest" [easily found on the net]. It raises the same questions. I can't say for sure what I'd do up there, but if you can help a poor soul, and don't because you want to take pictures from the summit, you're scum in my book.

The term "scum" would not go over well in the climbers world.

Of course a TV show about bad things that happen on Everest, is going to make it like "only buttholes won't save someone"...the producers would be failing if they didn't

The rule is there...like it or lump it, these climbers are there (essentially alone) for their own reasons...they have a goal...they are not there on a rescue mission...

There isn't even a rescue team for Everest....ask yourself why?

(it's because it's far too risky...climb at your own risk)

[Waterpilot]

Originally Posted by bassrique

Like I said, it's easy for me to judge, but the story I linked to does raise questions.

Right now I'm watching the National Geographic documentary, "The Dark Side of Everest" [easily found on the net]. It raises the same questions. I can't say for sure what I'd do up there, but if you can help a poor soul, and don't because you want to take pictures from the summit, you're scum in my book.

I understand what you're saying but I also think you're being a little to hard on peeps.

The questions that should be raised, really, are by those making a profit off of something so dangerous. Many of the people that climb some of the highest peaks have the money but not the skill to do so.

Mountaineering is a risk. There are no air bags or seat belts. One slip and you're sliding down thousands of feet to your death (Television doesn't do it justice).

Often times, like others have said, you risk your own life by trying to help, particularly when not trained to do so. There are many documented cases were people trying to help perished themselves. You saw the cost and trouble to climb Everest. That doesn't include your gear, the cost of climbing other mountains you've climbed to prepare. The books, classes you've taken and the vast amount of time taken for one shot at a lifetime opportunity.

At some point people have to rely on themselves to make good judgments of whether they can or can not tackle Everest. Since when would it be my job to risk my own life because of your poor decision?

EDIT: Muziod hit some of my points while I was typing. So +1 to him.

[bassrique]

Originally Posted by Muzoid

The term "scum" would not go over well in the climbers world.

Of course a TV show about bad things that happens on Everest, is going to make it like "only buttholes won't save someone"...they'd be failing if they didn't

The rule is there...like it or lump it, these climbers are there (essentially alone) for their own reasons...they have a goal...they are not there on a rescue mission...

There isn't even a rescue team for Everest....ask yourself why?

(it's because it's far too risky...climb at your own risk)

I imagine there are no rescue teams on Everest because it's very impractical, however, if a climbing team is up there there already, their first priority should be rescue if need be and not the summit. If you can't save the unfortunate climber then so be it, but at least you tried.

Firemen engage in these decisions all the time.

[Muzoid]

Originally Posted by bassrique

I imagine there are no rescue teams on Everest because it's very impractical, however, if a climbing team is up there there already, their first priority should be rescue if need be and not the summit. If you can't save the unfortunate climber then so be it, but at least you tried.

Firemen engage in these decisions all the time.

When you get to Everest...your climbing director will enforce to not even try...

In almost all attempts, either the victim will die, or victim and rescuer(s) will die. I find it funny that you think you'd be the successful one, when so many have tried and failed. In fact the process needs to be so well timed, and some sections are so narrow, that essentially your rescue mission will put every climber on the mountain in jeopardy, and that's asking for a butt-kicking when you get down.

Firemen don't exist on Everest....you're comparing apples to parking meters.

[bassrique]

Originally Posted by Muzoid

When you get to Everest...your climbing director will enforce to not even try...

In almost all attempts, either the victim will die, or victim and rescuer(s) will die. I find it funny that you think you'd be the successful one, when so many have tried and failed. In fact the process needs to be so well timed, and some sections are so narrow, that essentially your rescue mission will put every climber on the mountain in jeopardy, and that's asking for a butt-kicking when you get down.

Firemen don't exist on Everest....you're comparing apples to parking meters.

Firemen often exist in worse environments. Did you read the link provided in the first post?

[Waterpilot]

Originally Posted by Muzoid

Firemen don't exist on Everest....you're comparing apples to parking meters.

+1 Not to mention Fire Fighters have numerous hours of training to save lives and make those kinds of decisions.

Climbers may have taking a mountain rescue class but normally that's about it.

[SoComSurfing]

Originally Posted by Muzoid

Firemen don't exist on Everest....you're comparing apples to parking meters.

Quote of the century (so far).

More often than not these climbers who perish are the ones who think they can make the trek themselves, or at least on a "private" expedition. YOU CAN NOT! It takes a team! I'm sorry, call me scum, but by the time I'm prepared to summit the top of the world (if that day ever comes), I'll be approx $300,000 deep into my endeavor and will have taken EVERY step of the way under the supervision of an experienced guide/training service. Some other person's over-confidence is not going to put my financial investment, along with the lives of 3-5 other people, myself not included, at mortal risk. If you're facing an Everest expedition then you know the risks and you should know that YOU CAN NOT go it alone!

[SoComSurfing]

Originally Posted by Waterpilot

....

Climbers may have taking a mountain rescue class but normally that's about it.

Unfortunately there are companies out there who are willing to give "guided tours" of Everest if you're willing to pay, and require little more than a few hours on "how to self arrest". These companies are the ones who see summit rates in the single digits or teens, and face any mortality rate at all. Climb with the true "experts" and you won't have this. Yes, it will cost more, but you're going to have people who are more concerned about keeping you healthy than getting you to a photo op. As per the example I posted above, there are expedition companies who won't even consider your application until you have already conquered some of the world's tallest and most dangerous peaks. These are the only people I would trust my life to.

[TOOL460002]

Originally Posted by SoComSurfing

There are WAY too many out there who think they can make the last few hundred meters themselves because they have done Denali, Aconcagua, Vinson, etc. Everest is a totally different beast.

+++1

everest is certainly not in my future. i have done a fair amount of backpacking and hiking in co, and while it is far from everest, you couldnt go on the 2am wake up type hikes or 9 day backpacks if you couldnt handle it.

if i was in everest shape, and was hiking past someone with enough money but no business being on the mountain, i would think of my family and keep on trekking.

EDIT: oh... didnt know some companies require resumes. thats perfect. problem kind of solved.