The ethics of techonology development during wartime

[john turner]

Originally Posted by RWP

There is SO much technology we took from the Germans and Hitler was such an idiot, he let all his talent go to America. Wernher von Braun was the reason we got to the moon.

WVB also built much of the machines he did using slave labor, including concentration camp victims and russian prisoners of war that were literally worked to death by the 10s of thousands.

read about the todt organization some time, and especially under albert speer, the develpment of armaments during the 2nd half of the war.

the nazi military/industrial machine deserves -no- respect whatsoever - every gain and development they achieved was done so with the blood, suffering and murder of millions of slave laborers and concentration camp victims that were treated as worse than stray dogs.

i hate to be such a wet sock on this awesome tech-fest (i'm a complete fan of the whole flying wing concept - anyone notice the early american flying wing that was in the original war of the worlds movie from the 50's? pretty cool) but i have a hard time applauding -anything- that the nazi regime accomplished in light of the nearly infinite suffering they inflicted on the world, the effects of which we are -still- experiencing today, in many ways.

[Happynoj]

Originally Posted by john turner

WVB also built much of the machines he did using slave labor, including concentration camp victims and russian prisoners of war that were literally worked to death by the 10s of thousands.

read about the todt organization some time, and especially under albert speer, the develpment of armaments during the 2nd half of the war.

the nazi military/industrial machine deserves -no- respect whatsoever - every gain and development they achieved was done so with the blood, suffering and murder of millions of slave laborers and concentration camp victims that were treated as worse than stray dogs.

i hate to be such a wet sock on this awesome tech-fest (i'm a complete fan of the whole flying wing concept - anyone notice the early american flying wing that was in the original war of the worlds movie from the 50's? pretty cool) but i have a hard time applauding -anything- that the nazi regime accomplished in light of the nearly infinite suffering they inflicted on the world, the effects of which we are -still- experiencing today, in many ways.

They were clever and innovative though, even if their methods of achieving results left something to be desired.

[Solarmist]

Originally Posted by john turner

i hate to be such a wet sock on this awesome tech-fest (i'm a complete fan of the whole flying wing concept - anyone notice the early american flying wing that was in the original war of the worlds movie from the 50's? pretty cool) but i have a hard time applauding -anything- that the nazi regime accomplished in light of the nearly infinite suffering they inflicted on the world, the effects of which we are -still- experiencing today, in many ways.

I just thought it was interesting - thats all.

[john turner]

Originally Posted by Happynoj

They were clever and innovative though, even if their methods of achieving results left something to be desired.

oh they were certainly clever and innovative, but they were so because they were intent on conquering and enslaving the world as a way to pull themselves out of their depression, from a misplaced sense of superiority, hubris and entitlement.

the rest of the world was not so clever because it was more intent on earning its way out of depression and not expending massive amounts of money that it didn't have and resources that it had to steal, and enslaving their neighbors for free labor, in an attempt to dream up and build wonder-weapons that would destroy the world.

again, not trying to be a downer - the plane is very cool, as was the technology behind it, but its really not right to discuss -anything- related to the ww2 german war machine without bringing up the atroicities committed by it. everything from german wonder planes to german bullets were manufactured on the backs of slaves - jews, pow's, ethnic slavs, gypsies, etc., most of whom did not survive the war.

my wife's father lost the bottom half of his leg working in a munitions plant in southern germany (he was originally from the ukraine) during the war, ironically while trying to escape an allied bombing run. he witnessed the german military/industrial complex first hand.

[McHaven]

I wouldn't say that everyone working and designing things for the war shared the same prejudiced sentiments as Hitler. WVB was just doing his work, probably trying to do his best to not be killed by his crazy government as well. I'm sure there were plenty of scientists who hated what Germany became, but weren't able to do anything about it.

[john turner]

Originally Posted by Solarmist

I just thought it was interesting - thats all.

it's totally interesting - believe me, i love that kind of stuff.

like i said, i'm really sorry to be such a downer on this. it's just hard for me anymore (especially since i've really begun reading and learning about the day-to-day recorded history of the war) to divorce the atrocities and the ugliness from the cool stuff from world war 2.

i don't know about anyone else, but as i was learning about history as a kid i always looked at ww2 as "the clean war" - the sides were clear cut, good and bad, but even the bad guys had some level of dignity and honor to them, and it always seemed like they were more "worthy opponents" than "worthy of obliteration". it was somehow a "clean" war, something to be studied and even, from a certain point of view, admired, like some kind of noble struggle.

that was naive of me. there has never been, in the history of the world, a regime so ruthlessly, unrepentantly and self-righteously evil as that of the ww2 german regime. from the first step into poland until hitler's long-over due self-inflicted lead headache, the war was one long atrocity.

i cannot give any props anymore to anyting related to that without feeling like i am, on some level, endorsing some small part of that atrocity.

[john turner]

Originally Posted by McHaven

I wouldn't say that everyone working and designing things for the war shared the same prejudiced sentiments as Hitler. WVB was just doing his work, probably trying to do his best to not be killed by his crazy government as well. I'm sure there were plenty of scientists who hated what Germany became, but weren't able to do anything about it.

wvb was a member in good standing of the SS throughout most of the war, except near the end when he was arrested for thinking (accurately) and saying (unwisely) to friends that the war wasn't going well, and then released at the insistence of his indispensibility to hitler by albert speer. one was not involved in the SS organization without buying into himmler's party line, specifically about the jews, but also about the "lesser races" like the poles, slavs, russian POW's and gypsies. after the fact, of course, he liked to say that "oh my, it was hellish, but i could do nothing" but, of course, so did the majority of the other captured ss personel once the war was over.

he also personally picked inmates from buchenwald concentration camp to work for him, as well as worked daily with inmates from aushwitz-birkenau, who were routinely beaten, even to death, at penemunde and mittelwerk, where his v2 was built. interestingly enough, iirc, geddy lee's parents were slave laborers at that camp (auschwitz-birkenau).

don't assume that just because wvb came to the u.s. he was a great guy. he wasn't - the reason he came here was because if the u.s. didn't take him the soviets would have, and as early as 1943 the post war "teams" were already getting set up for the next "match" (i.e. ussr vs west).

[WookieeForLife]

Wow, John, wow.

I can tell you feel very strongly about it. I also agree with you.

[McHaven]

Originally Posted by john turner

wvb was a member in good standing of the SS throughout most of the war, except near the end when he was arrested for thinking (accurately) and saying (unwisely) to friends that the war wasn't going well, and then released at the insistence of his indispensibility to hitler by albert speer. one was not involved in the SS organization without buying into himmler's party line, specifically about the jews, but also about the "lesser races" like the poles, slavs, russian POW's and gypsies. after the fact, of course, he liked to say that "oh my, it was hellish, but i could do nothing" but, of course, so did the majority of the other captured ss personel once the war was over.

he also personally picked inmates from buchenwald concentration camp to work for him, as well as worked daily with inmates from aushwitz-birkenau, who were routinely beaten, even to death, at penemunde and mittelwerk, where his v2 was built. interestingly enough, iirc, geddy lee's parents were slave laborers at that camp (auschwitz-birkenau).

don't assume that just because wvb came to the u.s. he was a great guy. he wasn't - the reason he came here was because if the u.s. didn't take him the soviets would have, and as early as 1943 the post war "teams" were already getting set up for the next "match" (i.e. ussr vs west).

Ok, well maybe not WVB then. Bad example. I don't know as much as you, so I submit to your knowledge. I'm just saying, there's plenty of people working for companies they may morally disagree with, or have conflicts with, but have no other options

[john turner]

i'm sorry again for being such a downer in this thread.

that -is- a cool plane. (so's the me-262 - jet saw action and had a good record vs. allied prop pilots. chuck yeager was one of the first allied pilots to shoot one down (he was flying a prop plane heh)).

i'm gonna take my downer-talk and leave the thread now

[Relic]

Originally Posted by john turner

WVB also built much of the machines he did using slave labor, including concentration camp victims and russian prisoners of war that were literally worked to death by the 10s of thousands.

read about the todt organization some time, and especially under albert speer, the develpment of armaments during the 2nd half of the war.

the nazi military/industrial machine deserves -no- respect whatsoever - every gain and development they achieved was done so with the blood, suffering and murder of millions of slave laborers and concentration camp victims that were treated as worse than stray dogs.

i hate to be such a wet sock on this awesome tech-fest (i'm a complete fan of the whole flying wing concept - anyone notice the early american flying wing that was in the original war of the worlds movie from the 50's? pretty cool) but i have a hard time applauding -anything- that the nazi regime accomplished in light of the nearly infinite suffering they inflicted on the world, the effects of which we are -still- experiencing today, in many ways.

Having been a student of WW2 like forever, and having lived in Poland for a while, I'll just have to bite my tongue, take a deep breathe and agree with John here.
From a technological viewpoint, yep, it's cool. But just be aware that a lot of the technology credited to the nazi's was actually stolen from many occupied countries. In many instances, they took plans, concepts, and so forth and simply perfected it - something their victims were not able to do for obvious reasons. Don't get me wrong, they were devilishly innovative, but they do not deserve all the credit that they get.

[12bass]

While I agree that the technology is fascinating, I find the recounting of history rather one-sided. History gets written by the victors, and in this case many of the atrocities committed by the allies have been swept under the rug. Seeing things in black/white, good/evil terms is seldom realistic.....

[Simo98]

Ancient Egyptians were slavers and beat there slaves to death, among other heinous crimes. What are your opinions on paper?

Not trying to be a smart arse, but im not sure where you are trying to go with this? The Romans butchered their way across the known world, and look what that boughts us, roads, sanitation, medicine.

Unfortunatly people will always suffer somewhere, just look at Asia at the moment, many parts of todays society would not be the same without the super cheap labour and poor living conditions of China and Korea.

Not saying it a good thing, but if you want to nit pick every aspect of the modern world is build on somebody being exploited and downtrodden.

[ehque]

Originally Posted by Simo98

Ancient Egyptians were slavers and beat there slaves to death, among other heinous crimes. What are your opinions on paper?

Not trying to be a smart arse, but im not sure where you are trying to go with this? The Romans butchered their way across the known world, and look what that boughts us, roads, sanitation, medicine.

Unfortunatly people will always suffer somewhere, just look at Asia at the moment, many parts of todays society would not be the same without the super cheap labour and poor living conditions of China and Korea.

Not saying it a good thing, but if you want to nit pick every aspect of the modern world is build on somebody being exploited and downtrodden.

Yes, can't we agree that Nazi Germany was BOTH ingenious and one of the most nefarious regimes ever? Of course, Keynes' Economic Consequences of the Peace is a must read for this topic. It really made me rethink a lot of the notions I had about the Nazi actions during WWII.

Back on topic, i thought the reason why flying wings don't work (at least, the old ones) because keeping one in the air requires a lot of micro adjustments only a fast computer could do (due to the lack of a rudder), and hence a flying wing controlled totally by a human pilot would fall out of the sky? Those air intakes are also going to have a huge radar cross section due to the domes and the turbine rotors (refer to the B2's intakes to see how it should have been done)

[mindbass]

Originally Posted by john turner

one was not involved in the SS organization without buying into himmler's party line, specifically about the jews, but also about the "lesser races" like the poles, slavs, russian POW's and gypsies.

I respect your view about this issue, i.e. bringing up both sides to the story. But you should also bring up the issue that the US and USSR for example were very happy to find the scientific results of tests the SS doctors did on concentrationcamp inmates. Without those 'tests' high altitude flight would not be possible because the germans actually tested the effects of just that in un/pressurized cabins. Most of the 'test subjects' did not survive and suffered horrible deaths by im/explosion.
All of today's planes' designs with pressurized cabins are based on this 'scientific research'.

Yes WvB was an SS member, but if feel that there are some misconceptions about SS members. IMHO everyone in the Gestapo, SD, Einsatzgruppen..... was a hardcore nazi. As far as i know there is no proof that WvB had much to do with nazi ideology. It is well documented that he dreamt of flying to the moon and not flying bombs to Antwerp, London and Rotterdam. If you wanted to become anything better than average in the 3 Reich you had to become part of some sort of official organisation. All sportspersonalities for example were members of the SS, some by choice and some definitely not.

From 1940 onwards the SS basically took anyone who volunteerd, they even had slavic, jewish, ukrainian POW and many other 'non arians' amongst them.

what i'm trying to say is that it's not a black and white issue and everyone who subsequentley used or employed nazi technology has blood on their hands.


On a side note, the picture linked above of the 'america bomber' is not the america bomber, the 'real' one would have looked exactly like the HO 229, just a lot bigger and with six engines instead of two. It was never built though.

[RWP]

Originally Posted by john turner

WVB also built much of the machines he did using slave labor, including concentration camp victims and russian prisoners of war that were literally worked to death by the 10s of thousands.

read about the todt organization some time, and especially under albert speer, the develpment of armaments during the 2nd half of the war.

the nazi military/industrial machine deserves -no- respect whatsoever - every gain and development they achieved was done so with the blood, suffering and murder of millions of slave laborers and concentration camp victims that were treated as worse than stray dogs.

i hate to be such a wet sock on this awesome tech-fest (i'm a complete fan of the whole flying wing concept - anyone notice the early american flying wing that was in the original war of the worlds movie from the 50's? pretty cool) but i have a hard time applauding -anything- that the nazi regime accomplished in light of the nearly infinite suffering they inflicted on the world, the effects of which we are -still- experiencing today, in many ways.

QFT

I think it is difficult for people today to understand how truly evil the German Empire was during that period in history. The pain and suffering inflected by the Germans was beyond imagination and should never be overlooked even in a thread about technology. Compare their accomplishments to America's Manhattan Project and it becomes clear why We Rule The World.

[12bass]

Wow.... the bias here is simply incredible. Was it also morally justified to take the top German scientists for your own military programs after the war?

[jazzy grille]

My friend wrote a huge paper on the topic of Albert Einstein, his connection with Germany and how pretty much if Hitler kept Einstein we would all be speaking German.

The more and more I read I think my friend was right and this article only proves it more.

Great link, I sent to my friend.

[john turner]

Originally Posted by mindbass

I respect your view about this issue, i.e. bringing up both sides to the story. But you should also bring up the issue that the US and USSR for example were very happy to find the scientific results of tests the SS doctors did on concentrationcamp inmates. Without those 'tests' high altitude flight would not be possible because the germans actually tested the effects of just that in un/pressurized cabins. Most of the 'test subjects' did not survive and suffered horrible deaths by im/explosion.
All of today's planes' designs with pressurized cabins are based on this 'scientific research'.

well, cabin pressurisation predated the concentration camp experiments by up to a decade - even boeing had a pressurised airliner produced and flying in 1939.

still, the reason i brought up what i did about this technology was specifically -because- of what you are saying above - too often the "side of the angels" (i.e. the allies) glossed over the inconvenient truths of the greater german regime when those truths went counter to their desired goals. the facts should never be forgotten.

Yes WvB was an SS member, but if feel that there are some misconceptions about SS members. IMHO everyone in the Gestapo, SD, Einsatzgruppen..... was a hardcore nazi.

perhaps not in the waffen-ss, which were the military units, although that's debateable, but the other elements of the ss, including the elements that monitored the scientists, oversaw the slave labor and controlled the camps were most assuredly "racially and ideologically pure".

As far as i know there is no proof that WvB had much to do with nazi ideology.

as i said above, he specifically chose inmates from buchenwald to work as slave laborers - he even said he did long after the war. he wasn't proud of that fact, but that doesn't change that he did it.

It is well documented that he dreamt of flying to the moon and not flying bombs to Antwerp, London and Rotterdam. If you wanted to become anything better than average in the 3 Reich you had to become part of some sort of official organisation. All sportspersonalities for example were members of the SS, some by choice and some definitely not.

From 1940 onwards the SS basically took anyone who volunteerd, they even had slavic, jewish, ukrainian POW and many other 'non arians' amongst them.

what i'm trying to say is that it's not a black and white issue and everyone who subsequentley used or employed nazi technology has blood on their hands.

perhaps for most folks this would be true, although there's an interesting history book on the topic of the general civillian accountability called "hitler's willing executioners" by daniel goldhagen that documents a lot of what normal germans did to facilitate, and even encourage, the holocaust. hard reading, at times even appearing biased, although backed by documented facts.

even albert speer has an excellent quote in "inside the third reich", the story of his life as hitler's architect and the head of the todt organisation :

"being in a position to know and nevertheless shunning knowledge creates direct responsibility for the consequences"

On a side note, the picture linked above of the 'america bomber' is not the america bomber, the 'real' one would have looked exactly like the HO 229, just a lot bigger and with six engines instead of two. It was never built though.

northrop was working on flying wings too - a prop version in the early 40s and then a few years later a 6-engine jet.

here's the 2nd generation american version, the yb49 :



from what i understand, 2 were built, but they never went into production. much of the data collected during the flight tests of the above plane were used in the development of the b-2, which shared many of the same dimensions and flight characteristics, 30 years later.

[RWP]

^^ Jack Northrup's story of his flying wing is really sad. He developed a working flying wing bomber at great personal cost and I believe his project was sabotaged, costing him the US Government contract.