Free Will.

[Muaguana]

Oh yeah. I just went there.

Not the Rush song, but the metaphysical concept of "free will." Do we have it? Do we exercise it? Does it exist in reality or is it just an illusion?

Discuss.

[MakiSupaStar]

[Bruce Lindfield]

Free Willy!!

[Araillac]

We have free will. That is my argument and I will stubbornly stay that way no matter what proof you have, which I will ignore and not read over.

[baalroo]

No we don't have free will, each action is a result of previous actions in a chain of events that started before any of us ever existed. Since each action is informed fully by all the previous actions in the chain of events, including the first action any of us ever took, it follows that we are actually simply acting out an unchangeable chain of events.

HOWEVER, I'm perfectly comfortable with accepting the illusion of free will that we construct for ourselves.

[Muaguana]

Originally Posted by MakiSupaStar

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

Free Willy!!

Originally Posted by Araillac

We have free will. That is my argument and I will stubbornly stay that way no matter what proof you have, which I will ignore and not read over.

Off to a good start already!

[Truktek2]

Damn. I came in here thinking I was going to be able to specify who to leave all my worldly possessions to without seeing a lawyer. Damn.

[Jim Nazium]

Yes we do. Determinism only makes sense in terms of Newtonian physics; it breaks down at the quantum level. The outcome of an experiment isn't determined until it's observed.

[tjmdetroit]

Originally Posted by Muaguana

Oh yeah. I just went there.

Not the Rush song, but the metaphysical concept of "free will." Do we have it? Do we exercise it? Does it exist in reality or is it just an illusion?

Discuss.

"A school teacher on the first day of class told his students that some would
pass and some would fail the course they were about to take. He then
described the things necessary for one to be of those who would pass. At
the end of the school year, just as the teacher had said, some passed and
some failed. Since the teacher had predestined the outcome before he
began, does it mean that he caused each individual to either pass or fail
and there was nothing they could do about it? Certainly not! It was up to
each student to be of whichever group he desired."

I've heard that God implemented a predestined plan to live with Him and gave us a free will to choose it.
Gospel.

Tim

[MIJ-VI]

Free won't?..

[Thunderscreech]

I think we should free him. After all, it's not nice to incarcerate people for no reason.

[iamlowsound]

No, we don't have free will in the metaphysical sense. If the were the case, I could jump off a building and fly, because that is what I will to do. Since that is not possible, we do not have free will. Although I would argue that we have some sort of free choice, but those choices are affected by the choices of everyone else around us. While these choices might be free, no choice is really a choice; when a choice is presented before us, it is already determined which choice we will take, as we will always choose the thing that we want more and that is already known before the choice is presented to us.

lowsound

[EBodious]

Originally Posted by Jim Nazium

Yes we do. Determinism only makes sense in terms of Newtonian physics; it breaks down at the quantum level. The outcome of an experiment isn't determined until it's observed.

i think this is a very good point.

Originally Posted by iamlowsound

No, we don't have free will in the metaphysical sense. If the were the case, I could jump off a building and fly, because that is what I will to do. Since that is not possible, we do not have free will. Although I would argue that we have some sort of free choice, but those choices are affected by the choices of everyone else around us. While these choices might be free, no choice is really a choice; when a choice is presented before us, it is already determined which choice we will take, as we will always choose the thing that we want more and that is already known before the choice is presented to us.

lowsound

but i sure like the logic of this.


maybe one of the comforts of believing that reality is subjective, is that it makes "free will" a non-issue. one can accept the utilitarian value of free will in their life, just as one can accept the value of functioning in the causal, linear universe we perceive. these both give human existence common-ground on which to function daily, regardless if they really exist.

if all that exists is the now, then right now i gotta get going to a midday winery gig. have fun y'all.

[EBodious]

Originally Posted by Thunderscreech

I think we should free him. After all, it's not nice to incarcerate people for no reason.

p.s. if you believe that the government does not have the right to tell you what you can, or cannot, name your kids, then they certainly don't have the right to lock someone up based on their name alone.

FREE WILL!!

[Kwesi]

Originally Posted by Muaguana

Oh yeah. I just went there.

Not the Rush song, but the metaphysical concept of "free will." Do we have it? Do we exercise it? Does it exist in reality or is it just an illusion?

Discuss.

Invariably. I refuse to believe that being living, dead, or transcendant beyond those boundaries can absolutely control what I do. Of course, people have influence over me but in the end it it 100% my decision to do whatever I do. Even by doing nothing one is exercising their free will. To believe that we are all machinations of some greater life from is not only an annoying thought but a sad one. Imagine that everyday that you rise and every night that you sleep there was something pulling the strings. That would mean we're nothing more than fleshy, complex robots. I may not be able to control the circumstances that I may encounter or find myself in but only I am in charge of my reactions to them... as long I'm conscious anyway

[Tommygunn]

Umm.... As a Roman Catholic (and a religion skeptic XD), I won't put in my two cents. But I spend alot of my time researching this and learning about it (as well as I take advanced theology in highschool). But if anybody cares enough, feel free to pm me.

[Kwesi]

Originally Posted by iamlowsound

No, we don't have free will in the metaphysical sense. If the were the case, I could jump off a building and fly, because that is what I will to do. Since that is not possible, we do not have free will. Although I would argue that we have some sort of free choice, but those choices are affected by the choices of everyone else around us. While these choices might be free, no choice is really a choice; when a choice is presented before us, it is already determined which choice we will take, as we will always choose the thing that we want more and that is already known before the choice is presented to us.

lowsound

I like the thought behind this idea being able to jump off a building and fly sounds more along the lines of "Free control of reality and it's components" to me . The way I see free will is not simply the manifestation of what we may wish to be true but the exercising of our born right to make choices within natural and physical law. Last I checked human flight wasn't on the list, I'm hoping that'll change someday though .

In a absolute worst case scenario, life is a series of multiple choice quizes with a near infinite amount of choices for each question.

"Mom asks you to clean the Bathroom. What do you do?"

A. Clean Bathroom
B. Weasel your way out of it
C. Yell at her
...
...
...
...
Z. Strip nekkid, jump out the window, hijack a car and never be seen again.

Hey, it's an option

Like I said before those decisions are obviously influenced by others but I firmly believe that you are the final executor of your own movements.

[shackled]

Originally Posted by Tommygunn

Umm.... As a Roman Catholic (and a religion skeptic XD), I won't put in my two cents. But I spend alot of my time researching this and learning about it (as well as I take advanced theology in highschool). But if anybody cares enough, feel free to pm me.

Yeah, alright.

I believe in free will.
Otherwise this world wouldn't be as messed up as it is.

[iamlowsound]

Originally Posted by Kwesi

I like the thought behind this idea being able to jump off a building and fly sounds more along the lines of "Free control of reality and it's components" to me . The way I see free will is not simply the manifestation of what we may wish to be true but the exercising of our born right to make choices within natural and physical law. Last I checked human flight wasn't on the list, I'm hoping that'll change someday though .

In a absolute worst case scenario, life is a series of multiple choice quizes with a near infinite amount of choices for each question.

"Mom asks you to clean the Bathroom. What do you do?"

A. Clean Bathroom
B. Weasel your way out of it
C. Yell at her
...
...
...
...
Z. Strip nekkid, jump out the window, hijack a car and never be seen again.

Hey, it's an option

Like I said before those decisions are obviously influenced by others but I firmly believe that you are the final executor of your own movements.

Your reaction to your mom asking you to clean the bathroom is already determined before she asked you the question. You will always do what you desire the most, if you biggest desire is to please your mom/clean the bathroom, that is what you will do. If your biggest desire is to not please your mom/clean the bathroom, the you will pick on of the other options. The fact that you are nekkid [sic] and jump out the window, is merely how you choose to not clean the bathroom, in the end, it is the same as turning your music up and posting on TB.

lowsound

[Unrepresented]

Originally Posted by baalroo

No we don't have free will, each action is a result of previous actions in a chain of events that started before any of us ever existed. Since each action is informed fully by all the previous actions in the chain of events, including the first action any of us ever took, it follows that we are actually simply acting out an unchangeable chain of events.

HOWEVER, I'm perfectly comfortable with accepting the illusion of free will that we construct for ourselves.

+1.

People can accept that they live in a causal universe where every action has a reaction, but as soon as they're then forced to take the next logical step and confront that they are also purely reaction to a primary action, they get uncomfortable.

"No! I meant all physical things in the universe except myself! I'm a totally different type of physical thing that's magically immune to basic laws!!!!!!!1111"