French Intellectuals Cite Race for World Cup Failure

[Dr. Cheese]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/24/wo.../24france.html

If this is too political, please delete it. As an American, it is interesting to read of the French citing the race of their players as a reason for their failure. Considering that all of the major European powers have racially diverse teams, and that France won the Cup with a mixed team, it is sad that race is brought up to criticize the current squad.

Thinking of American sports, race is far from dead as an issue, but I can't imagine a serious academic citing race as a cause for failure on a team.

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Being an academic, being an intellectual, doesn't mean you are without your own personal beliefs.

It's just a shame people will probably listen to that guy. France can be quite a right wing country at times.

The french team lost because it was full of douche bags of all different colours.

[macaroni tony]

really???? wow, beyond asinine

[becker4567]

Originally Posted by i_got_a_mohawk

The french team lost because it was full of douche bags of all different colours.

It really doesn't matter what country your from, when your team if full of and led by douche bags, it's going to be a loser.

[MonetBass]

Ignorance abounds, even among academics unfortunately.

[Dr. Cheese]

Originally Posted by i_got_a_mohawk

Being an academic, being an intellectual, doesn't mean you are without your own personal beliefs.

It's just a shame people will probably listen to that guy. France can be quite a right wing country at times.

The french team lost because it was full of douche bags of all different colours.

I am an academic, having spent almost all of my adult life on college campuses, I'm not surprised at what folks with a few degrees think. I am just dismayed that such ideas would get a public airing in a serious setting in France.

[shadowtippy]

It would be in poor taste and might get me banned to post what I thought when I read the first two words of the thread title.

[john turner]

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

I am an academic, having spent almost all of my adult life on college campuses, I'm not surprised at what folks with a few degrees think. I am just dismayed that such ideas would get a public airing in a serious setting in France.

i have to say, i'm surprised too, considering france often was the preferred destination during much of the last century for american expats attempting to escape racism here.

[Relic]

Interesting how in 1998 the team, when doing well, was praised for it's diversity.

[macaroni tony]

Originally Posted by john turner

i have to say, i'm surprised too, considering france often was the preferred destination during much of the last century for american expats attempting to escape racism here.

I've been hearing a whole lot of insensitivity coming out of france the last few years....from what I've heard, a lot of people are very nationalistic/tribalistic out there. They don't quite see racism and the like the same way we do out here

[karrot-x]

I want to say something stereotypical about France but I wont.

[XtreO]

Originally Posted by Relic

Interesting how in 1998 the team, when doing well, was praised for it's diversity.

Not really that interesting in relation to this. That one 'academic' thinks race got something to do with it, doesn't mean the whole of France has turned around.

[Dr. Cheese]

Originally Posted by john turner

i have to say, i'm surprised too, considering france often was the preferred destination during much of the last century for american expats attempting to escape racism here.

It seems to be human nature to be able to sympathize with those who have hardships in another country while having a blindspot to issues at home. I can think of some issues where Americans have done the same thing, but it would be a violation of OT policy to mention them.

[Dr. Cheese]

Originally Posted by XtreO

Not really that interesting in relation to this. That one 'academic' thinks race got something to do with it, doesn't mean the whole of France has turned around.

That's true, but folks say things openly often when they feel they have support.

[Nikoubis]

Note that in the article, the opinions stated are not "We sucked because we used players of X race". The concern was far broader, on how people from varied ethnic backgrounds view each other, and how little "French" many immigrants (or people born to immigrants) feel. AFAIK, these are issues that have been present for a while over there (and actually over here as well).

[Stinsok]

Intellectual? He may be book smart, but he ain't got walkin' around sense.

[Relic]

Originally Posted by Nikoubis

Note that in the article, the opinions stated are not "We sucked because we used players of X race". The concern was far broader, on how people from varied ethnic backgrounds view each other, and how little "French" many immigrants (or people born to immigrants) feel. AFAIK, these are issues that have been present for a while over there (and actually over here as well).

I did notice that too. The tone of the article itself seemed racist to me so that pretty much turned me off right from the first paragraph but the general message was one of disunity. Issues like that are also present here in the US as well.

[bobwhite]

As I read the article, I think the racism (which I believe is correctly defined as the belief that certain races are congenitally inferior to others) charge is overblown and probably more of a spin from the NYT.

What I see being said, really, is that this team is comprised of some athletes who do not take pride in being French (e.g., will not sing the Marseilles); would rather play for someone else (presumably a former French colony, where they or their familes are from); are overly concerned with money and endorsements rather than winning for their nation (we've heard the same thing here relative to Davis Cup and Ryder Cup participation, or lack thereof); will not subscribe to the discipline of their coach (Hanley Ramirez?); and through boorish behavior culled from perhaps lower class upbringing do not represent the nation well (Michael Vick or Ben Roethlisberger, anyone?).

I suspect we will be debating here over the next years how we can reestablish certain social standards of behavior and decency--I mean, how many Vicks, Roethlisbergers, Ray Lewises, etc., do we need before we begin to have this debate? Raising social norms does not have to become race-baiting, but perhaps we do need to have a debate about social norms. That seems to me to be what is happening in France relative to this team. No doubt the tinge of losing in this WC, which means a lot to the French, drives some of this introspection, but I can see a lot more here than racism.

[standupright]

just bad all around. sad to see, especially on the world stage, where undoubtedly, people will now start to think that all of the French act or feel this way.

[macaroni tony]

Originally Posted by bobwhite

As I read the article, I think the racism (which I believe is correctly defined as the belief that certain races are congenitally inferior to others) charge is overblown and probably more of a spin from the NYT.

What I see being said, really, is that this team is comprised of some athletes who do not take pride in being French (e.g., will not sing the Marseilles); would rather play for someone else (presumably a former French colony, where they or their familes are from); are overly concerned with money and endorsements rather than winning for their nation (we've heard the same thing here relative to Davis Cup and Ryder Cup participation, or lack thereof); will not subscribe to the discipline of their coach (Hanley Ramirez?); and through boorish behavior culled from perhaps lower class upbringing do not represent the nation well (Michael Vick or Ben Roethlisberger, anyone?).

I suspect we will be debating here over the next years how we can reestablish certain social standards of behavior and decency--I mean, how many Vicks, Roethlisbergers, Ray Lewises, etc., do we need before we begin to have this debate? Raising social norms does not have to become race-baiting, but perhaps we do need to have a debate about social norms. That seems to me to be what is happening in France relative to this team. No doubt the tinge of losing in this WC, which means a lot to the French, drives some of this introspection, but I can see a lot more here than racism.

+1000 excellent points...at the same time, while reading the article, I tried to put myself in the shoes of someone who is of an immigrant family living in France. While I come from a neighborhood of people who generally do not like or trust the government, If I reached that pinnacle of soccer greatness and was asked to represent the whole country from which I came, I still can't see not playing my heart out for that reason. Let alone the bulk of an entire team. It kind of felt like the people in the article who cast the immigrants as lowlives who don't have the sophistication to care enough about their country to play well were kind of reaching, there.