Gas station owners going broke.

[Benjamin Strange]

http://blog.nola.com/updates/2008/07...ure_drive.html

Interesting - even those who are selling gas are being hurt by high gas prices. Whodathunkit?

[Dangle]

gas stations make their money on their over priced good inside the store
now that every station makes me pre pay i never even go inside.

[Dr. Cheese]

It makes sense. After a certain point, higher prices means a decline in demand, and credit and debit card fees definitely cut into profits. The irony, however, is that with prices so high, most stations no longer allow customers to pump then pay, even in "nice" neighborhoods, which means that more and more customers use debit and credit to avoid having to go into the store.

[peterbright]

When the supply dries up we won't need gas stations.

[ogrossman]

Originally Posted by ProBeachBum

It's gettin' ugly.

Nah, you should have been around in the 70's if you wanted to see ugly. Cars were lined up at gas stations around the block and stations were running out of gas because of shortages. So far this is just inconvenient by comparison.

How many people can't find somewhere within 100 miles of home to vacation?

[ogrossman]

We learned in the 70's that we shouldn't be driving gas guzzlers and then we promptly forgot the lesson and started buying SUVs. So who's to blame?

[Dr. Cheese]

Originally Posted by ogrossman

We learned in the 70's that we shouldn't be driving gas guzzlers and then we promptly forgot the lesson and started buying SUVs. So who's to blame?

AMEN!!!

The thing that kills me is that every time someone mentions an alternative fuel, someone else starts complaining about its affect. For example, folks off Cape Cod complain about losing their view if they build wind mills off the coast. Folks are complaining about changing the habitat in Quebec because of a new dam. Frankly, I think it's about ten thousand years too late to worry about a pristine environment. I want to save as much open space and wildlife as possible, but even environmentalists are totally plugged into the modern world.

Has anybody ever heard of the old saying you can't have your cake and eat it too?

[lowendmafia]

Originally Posted by ProBeachBum

I was just trying to think ahead ogrossman - something the US has failed to do. The trend is not looking good at all. Instead of people having to line up for gas there's just going to be less people driving.

I think everyone should be driving around in these

http://www.teslamotors.com/

but at this point it's a lot cheaper to modify your car/truck to run off of water

Alright buddy, you pay the tab so everyone can get one of those stupid cars. The country and the world will not get off oil, just go look out your door and count how many things that you can see running on oil. That would be like someone coming out tomorrow and saying that the world is off blood. There is no magical solution that will get us off oil in any less than 50 years, even if you build a car that runs on fairy dust or gumdrop dreams and give it away for free.

We must develop alternative energy sources, but it is a phasing out process. During that time, we have to figure out a way to get oil at lower prices (drill at home), if you disagree with me you are wrong and not paying attention to current events. If we do not go get the oil that is off our shores the Russians and the Chinese would gladly take it right out from under us, and they are. The oil is getting drilled either way, we might as well get it for ourselves.

[burk48237]

Originally Posted by ProBeachBum

lowendmafia I agree the US needs to drill for its own oil. There's tons of oil or natural gas in the Santa Barbara channel but I doubt we'll ever get any of that. The new lifted ban will help but I think its kinda like too little too late. We won't see that oil for what 10-15 years? We need to do something as soon as possible. Canada has the biggest oil reserves in the world I believe.. it's a shame its frozen half of the year. Maybe they could send some our way - that NAFTA thing might come in handy after all, hehe.

The dependency on foreign oil is a US problem. But everyone's to blame for the destruction of the environment. Anyway, the best idea I've heard of is that Pickens Plan.

The problem with the 10-15 years argument is two-fold. First, it's shortsighted, it was the same excuse that a previous administration in Vetoing the Arctic National Mosquito Refuge drilling made 10 years ago. We sure would appreciate that oil now. Second the futures market is driving up the price of oil, any signal that the US is serious about drilling drives down the futures market and the current price. We saw this today when the price of oil fell 6$ in 15 minutes.

[::::BASSIST::::]

Keep your hands off our oil. Aren't there some hotter climate countries that would be willing to "help"?

[HiFi]

Originally Posted by ProBeachBum

Instead of people having to line up for gas there's just going to be less people driving.

Neat-o! Most of the people I see driving don't know what they're doing as it is.

[aborgman]

Originally Posted by lowendmafia

We must develop alternative energy sources, but it is a phasing out process.

This is true - and it's going to take a while.

Originally Posted by lowendmafia

During that time, we have to figure out a way to get oil at lower prices (drill at home),

This on the other hand is a pipe dream. No matter how much drilling we open, no matter how many refineries we open... oil prices are never going down (outside local minima) again.

Worldwide demand has exceeded supply for four straight years, and is rising. Oil prices will continue to go up, and there is nothing we can do to stop it.

[peaveyuser]

Originally Posted by ::::BASSIST::::

Keep your hands off our oil. Aren't there some hotter climate countries that would be willing to "help"?

+1

Oh man I have the best joke but its political and will get me banned

[lowendmafia]

[/quote]This on the other hand is a pipe dream. No matter how much drilling we open, no matter how many refineries we open... oil prices are never going down (outside local minima) again.

Worldwide demand has exceeded supply for four straight years, and is rising. Oil prices will continue to go up, and there is nothing we can do to stop it.[/quote]

You need to put down the Kool Aid brother. The problem with oil prices is that they are not based on supply/demand, in fact they are really arbitrarily priced. The Saudis could lower oil prices any time they wanted to, but they do not. Even as behavior changes here and abroad, prices remain high. How is that possible? Oil usage is down 5% in the last year in the US alone, and they still will not lower prices. This is why I believe that there is a political strategy behind it. Unfortunately, since TB does not allow politics (even though I see anti-American statements all the time that do not get deleted and it is ok to use a picture of Obama as your avatar) I will not be allowed to post it here.

If you believe that drilling will not lower prices, just look at the lifting of the moratorium on drilling off the coast line, oil drop 6 dollars one day and 7 dollars the next (I am not positive that they stayed that low). Think of OPEC like our heroin dealers, they have the goods and we are hooked on it. If they start making the price so high that we can't afford it, we are going to look for a new heroin dealer. And when everyone follows suit they will have no customers left, however once their best customers leave them they will start lowering prices. If we were to become oil independent tariffs will need to be immediately placed on any foreign oil.

Just one more thought, for anyone who is concerned with the environmental consequences of drilling oil off our shores, wake the hell up. If we do not drill for it, Russia, China and Cuba are already working on it. You see, if we do not drill it someone else will get it that hates America and we will be paying way too much to get it back. It is one thing to be naive, but anyone who believes that we should not drill due to environmental concerns is just plain stupid.

[NJL]

i'm lucky in san antonio... i have not encountered having to go inside to pay cash, nor have i seen any places close down.. i'm sure thing will change in the future.

sucks to be a small business owner.

[sevenorchids]

Gotta tell you, I have heard this all before...

Late 90's - Stock prices will continue to rise, rise, rise
Mid 2000's - Housing prices will continue to rise, rise, rise...this isn't like the stock market because housing is a finite resource that everyone needs!
Now - Oil prices will continue to rise, rise, rise...and this isn't like the housing or the stock market, because supplies are drying up.

It's silly, really. Investors are moving out of the stock market and into commodities, because they are chasing returns. More demand for these contracts, prices go up. Oil itself doesn't get worth more, just the commodities contracts.

We'll see what happens, but I look at the stock market and the housing market and remember the bulls in both of them telling us that prices will go up, up, up...some of them are the same talking heads that are saying the same thing about oil.

Yes, we need alternative forms of energy NOW! I agree there. And, you are right, can't remember the last time I actually went into a gas station.

[ogrossman]

Originally Posted by sevenorchids

It's silly, really. Investors are moving out of the stock market and into commodities, because they are chasing returns. More demand for these contracts, prices go up. Oil itself doesn't get worth more, just the commodities contracts.

+1

For those who believe in their heart that oil prices will continue to go up then the solution for high gas prices is simple. Invest your money in oil futures and the money you make from that will more than offset the high prices at the pumps!

Remember that those evil oil companies are publicly owned. If you think they're getting more than their fair share of the profits there's no reason you can't get in on it.

[BadB]

[/quote]This on the other hand is a pipe dream. No matter how much drilling we open, no matter how many refineries we open... oil prices are never going down (outside local minima) again.

Worldwide demand has exceeded supply for four straight years, and is rising. Oil prices will continue to go up, and there is nothing we can do to stop it.[/quote]

You need to put down the Kool Aid brother. The problem with oil prices is that they are not based on supply/demand, in fact they are really arbitrarily priced. The Saudis could lower oil prices any time they wanted to, but they do not. Even as behavior changes here and abroad, prices remain high. How is that possible? Oil usage is down 5% in the last year in the US alone, and they still will not lower prices. This is why I believe that there is a political strategy behind it. Unfortunately, since TB does not allow politics (even though I see anti-American statements all the time that do not get deleted and it is ok to use a picture of Obama as your avatar) I will not be allowed to post it here.

If you believe that drilling will not lower prices, just look at the lifting of the moratorium on drilling off the coast line, oil drop 6 dollars one day and 7 dollars the next (I am not positive that they stayed that low). Think of OPEC like our heroin dealers, they have the goods and we are hooked on it. If they start making the price so high that we can't afford it, we are going to look for a new heroin dealer. And when everyone follows suit they will have no customers left, however once their best customers leave them they will start lowering prices. If we were to become oil independent tariffs will need to be immediately placed on any foreign oil.

Just one more thought, for anyone who is concerned with the environmental consequences of drilling oil off our shores, wake the hell up. If we do not drill for it, Russia, China and Cuba are already working on it. You see, if we do not drill it someone else will get it that hates America and we will be paying way too much to get it back. It is one thing to be naive, but anyone who believes that we should not drill due to environmental concerns is just plain stupid.[/quote]

I agree with you. Let's not forget that we have trillions of cubic feet of natural gas deposits, too, or the effect of buying back the national debt to increase the value of the dollar.

[aborgman]

Originally Posted by lowendmafia

You need to put down the Kool Aid brother. The problem with oil prices is that they are not based on supply/demand, in fact they are really arbitrarily priced.

Not at all - the rise in US oil prices is almost completely attributable to two things:

1) Increased demand
2) The weak dollar

The weak dollar by itself accounts for about a dollar of the increase in price over the last year.

Originally Posted by lowendmafia

The Saudis could lower oil prices any time they wanted to, but they do not.

No, they couldn't - Saudi Arabia could increase production marginally, but not in any meaningful way. Saudi Arabia surplus oil production is only 1.2 million bbl/d. OPEC as a whole is currently running at ~97% capacity.

Originally Posted by lowendmafia

Oil usage is down 5% in the last year in the US alone, and they still will not lower prices.

US oil usage is expected to be down ~2% in 2008 over 2007 levels (down 400,000 bbl/d)...

World oil consumption during the first half of 2008 rose by roughly 520,000 bbl/d compared with year-earlier levels (that is the entire world, including our 400,000 bbl/d drop). World oil consumption is projected to rise by almost 1.2 million bbl/d during the second half of the year.

- all numbers courtesy of US Energy Information Administration.

Originally Posted by lowendmafia

If you believe that drilling will not lower prices, just look at the lifting of the moratorium on drilling off the coast line, oil drop 6 dollars one day and 7 dollars the next (I am not positive that they stayed that low).

Like I said - local minima.

Originally Posted by lowendmafia

Think of OPEC like our heroin dealers, they have the goods and we are hooked on it.

OPEC accounts for less than half our total oil imports, and less than 1/4 our total oil consumption.

Originally Posted by lowendmafia

If they start making the price so high that we can't afford it, we are going to look for a new heroin dealer.

Considering that world consumption has exceeded world production 4 years running, good luck with that.

Originally Posted by lowendmafia

If we were to become oil independent tariffs will need to be immediately placed on any foreign oil.

The only conceivable way we become oil independent is to cut our usage by ~50%.

Best estimates for ANWR + the opened offshore areas, at full production, is 3-4 million bbl/d - 10 years from now. We currently import 10+ million bbl/d.

[lowendmafia]

Originally Posted by aborgman

Not at all - the rise in US oil prices is almost completely attributable to two things:

1) Increased demand
2) The weak dollar

The weak dollar by itself accounts for about a dollar of the increase in price over the last year.

I am not fully disagreeing with you on this, however speculation and oil futures also play major roles in price. There is a lot to say about the weak dollar, and there are ways to reverse it but they are too controversial for this forum..

Originally Posted by aborgman

No, they couldn't - Saudi Arabia could increase production marginally, but not in any meaningful way. Saudi Arabia surplus oil production is only 1.2 million bbl/d. OPEC as a whole is currently running at ~97% capacity.

I didn't say that they had to increase production, I said they could lower prices, that is they are the head of OPEC, they are western allies, OPEC sets the price, and Saudis need our business and our protection (military).

Originally Posted by aborgman

US oil usage is expected to be down ~2% in 2008 over 2007 levels (down 400,000 bbl/d)...

I do not care what the expected usage numbers are, at this point last year the US was using 5% more oil than we are at present. Since you are so fond of statistics, I will try to locate this info when I have more time.

Originally Posted by aborgman

World oil consumption during the first half of 2008 rose by roughly 520,000 bbl/d compared with year-earlier levels (that is the entire world, including our 400,000 bbl/d drop). World oil consumption is projected to rise by almost 1.2 million bbl/d during the second half of the year.

- all numbers courtesy of US Energy Information Administration.

Also a good point, and yet another reason we should be drilling. Selling oil in the open market (although I disagree with it) would be a viable solution to fixing our national debt.

Originally Posted by aborgman

OPEC accounts for less than half our total oil imports, and less than 1/4 our total oil consumption.

Again, OPEC sets oil prices, not Canada or anyone else for that matter. I know where our oil comes from, but why would Canada sell us oil for less than they can sell it to, say, China? This is a great example of why NAFTA is important.

Originally Posted by aborgman

Considering that world consumption has exceeded world production 4 years running, good luck with that.

The oil is there to be drilled, not just in the US, but globally. There will be someone, somewhere that figures out how to get it and get it in to the market. What I am saying is that it should be the US, not China or Russia. Especially since it is off of OUR shores.

Originally Posted by aborgman

The only conceivable way we become oil independent is to cut our usage by ~50%.

There is a lot of disagreement over this, some experts feel that we could get 30 years of oil just from the oil shale is South Dakota, by that time we could be close to having a viable alternative fuel and be moving towards a transition. Look, I am no expert on Oil, i do have a degree in International Politics and Economics, so I am making an argument here that is paraphrased from an expert. I have never seen the Oil shale and know that it takes some innovation to extract it, but why would we just not try?

Originally Posted by aborgman

Best estimates for ANWR + the opened offshore areas, at full production, is 3-4 million bbl/d - 10 years from now. We currently import 10+ million bbl/d.

Again, there is surely a differing point of view on this, I mean we have scientist say that we are amidst a global warming crisis and others saying that we are experiencing global cooling. Even science is driven by politics it would seem. You are going to choose to believe what you believe and I will do the same and we can disagree and no one will kill anyone. I guess my biggest question to you is, why would we not make the attempt? All signs point to it benefiting us in one way or another. I mean why give up before we even try?