Gender discussion.

[SamanthaCay]

Hi for those of you who don't know me my name is Samantha.
Among many of the things I consider myself to be, two are things I would like to bring up here.

One is that I am generally considered not only by myself and my peer group, but by many others that I have met over the years to be a very deep thinker.
I am usually never content with anything that is, so to speak set in stone.
I always find myself picking things apart and looking for new explanations and possibilities.

Second of these two things I consider relevant here, is that I am transgendered.

The reason I bring these two things up is so that I can hopefully give you a better idea of why I love to talk about gender, which is the intended purpose of this thread.

Through this thread I would like to give everyone a place to share their opinions, relevant studies in the field and as well ask any questions we might have.
So that hopefully by doing so we can get a more enlightened view on the topic.

To sum this up I would like to thank you for reading this and as well ask that you feel free to be open and ask me any questions that may be on your mind, but to also make it a point to be courteous and respectful in this discussion.

I know that this is a topic that a lot of you may not be at the most knowledgeable in and that there is the possibility of things being said and/or asked unintentionally that are not appropriate to bring up,
so I ask that you please if you are asked to re frame from a particular area of subject matter, that you please be respectful and do so.
To clarify that doesn't mean you have to always agree with me or ever agree with me, but rather in the spirit of talkbass that we all remain as respectful and courteous to one and another as possible.

[MJ5150]

So what exactly is transgender, and how did you realize you were? When did you start being transgender?

-Mike

[Selta]

I'm just going to sit back and watch this thread for a bit. I have a lot of exposure in this area (personal and academic), but I'm a far cry from being able to speak on it (I'd rather the people who actually around going through / have gone through and experienced these situations speak on them). Hopefully this can be informational to a lot of people.

[Joe Nerve]

I am a firm believer in live and let live, and so long as nobody is hurting themselves or someone else I really do accept people for who they are and what they choose. I've seen pretty much everything imaginable, and nothing seems all that out of the ordinary to me, BUT... that doesn't mean I understand it all, and I do have a question.

I have a friend/aquaintance who is transgendered. When he finally came to the conclusion (in his late 20s) that this is who he/she is he slowly started to undergo the transformation. He was going to tons of support groups, therapists, and psychiatrists - all to help him become who he truly felt he was. What I don't understand is this. His becoming a woman put him in a lot of danger. He'd get hit on by unsuspecting guys, and found himself during his transition in many situations that could have literally gotten him killed. He/she (I still have trouble with that one as I knew him for years as a he) never consideered himself gay, still likes women and is basically making his life incredibly complicated. Why spend all that time and all that energy going though all kinds of therapy and psychoanalysis to have someone get comfortable with something that it seems is only going to make things 1000X more difficult? Wouldn't counseling towards accepting oneself as they were created, as opposed to going through radical, dangerous surgery (all surgery is dangerous), make more sense than this? What piece of this puzzle am I missing?

[colcifer]

I'm guessing (literally) that your friend just couldn't be satisfied any other way (or at least thinks that). I'd also guess that their life was just as complicated as it is now but not in a way you could have seen. This should be a neat thread.

[RonGillman3]

Originally Posted by MJ5150

So what exactly is transgender, and how did you realize you were? When did you start being transgender?

-Mike

Same question here...

[SamanthaCay]

Originally Posted by MJ5150

So what exactly is transgender, and how did you realize you were? When did you start being transgender?

-Mike

To start here is the definition of the word transgender in accordance to Webster;

“of, relating to, or being a person (as a transsexual or transvestite) who identifies with or expresses a gender identity that differs from the one which corresponds to the person's sex at birth.”

Now this being the case let me get a little more in depth here, so that I can hopefully clear up some confusion anyone might have in interpreting this definition.

To start I want to go over the “as a transsexual or transvestite” part, by first stating that these are just two examples of many terms that can apply here.
It is important to note that the word transgender is more or less an “umbrella” of a term, used to define a rather large compass of gender identity related issues and beings.

Also important to note, in this understanding, is that not everyone that retains issues with their gender identity identifies with this term.
A good example of this would be that it is rather common that crossdressers as defined by people who like to occasionally dress in an opposite gender from that of their birth sex, yet prefer to live most of their daily life under a gender that corresponds with their birth sex.
These people will often not consider them selves “transgender” despite the fact that Webster disagrees.

Lastly I'd like to touch on the two examples given here. (transsexual and transvestite)

Transsexual is a term that is generally used to describe someone who wishes to, is in transition or has transitioned from one gender to another permanently.

Transvestite is a term that at one point in time was considered an acceptable way in which to describe a crossdresser (as defined above) and although it is still certainly a term that can be used in this manner, it is very often considered as one in which is derogatory.
It seems that although at one time most crossdressers felt it acceptable, now most do not find it to be so and rather prefer to be referred to as just simply crossdressers generally speaking ofcorse.

So that's it in a nut shell, if there is anything here that you find confusing or you would like me to clarify on please let me know.

As far as your other question of how and when I realized I was transgendered,
well I'll start with the when and then I'll get to the how.
As far as the first time I identified as transgender, it was when I was 12.
Although I had known for quite sometime that I was not “normal” as in, I identified more with female things then those of men and had on several occasions been in trouble for expressing this in a verity of ways from as young as five or so.
Any memories of life earlier than that are sparse and quite fuzzy.

Now as far as how did I come to this conclusion?
Once again when I was 12 I was hanging with some neighbor kids, one of them had a dirty magazine that he had stole from his dad.
While we where looking through it their was a picture add in the back featuring a “pre-operative” transsexual.
Seeing that made me realize (at least to the extent that my little brain could handle) that, that was me in a sense.
Shortly after that encounter I looked it up and eventually through that found more understanding of what was going on.

Now as far as the much earlier feelings I had in regards to identifying more as a girl then a boy well like I said my earliest memory of that was when I was five I remember playing dress up with my sister and then being told by my grandmother, “go change out of that silly costume” I said, but I'm a princess and she replied “no your a boy, boys can't be princesses”, I said I'm not a boy and got “yes you are now go change out of them cloths before I whip your butt”
I throw a fit over that one.

So I guess that's bout it, I hope this helped answer your questions.

Samantha.

[Horny Toad]

Very cool thread. Subscribed so I can hopefully learn a few things. Thanks Samantha!

[fourstringdrums]

Subscribed to possibly learn something

[jmattbassplaya]

So which, if either, is a person born with both male and female reproductive organs?

[HEIST]

That is a hermaphrodite.

[drummer5359]

I've had two instances in my life where I've gotten to know a person who was transgendered and had surgery during the time that I knew them.

This could be long, my appologies in advance.

In the early 1980's I was managing a truck rental/storage location. One day a man dressed as a woman came in to rent a storage room. His name was Michael, he was wearing a wig and a dress. He was accompanied by a very pretty asian girl named Kim. Michael asked that I put the name "Kelly" on the contract as well, as that was going to be his "post-operative" name and it was likely that he would have things in storage until long after his surgery.

Some of my crew had a problem being respectful and I had to explain that I wouldn't allow it on my watch. "It isn't the 1950's after all, this is the 1980's and we can certainly be more open minded."

Michael/Kelly came in regularly with her friend Kim to move things in and out as they needed over a couple of years. She became much better with "her" makeup, clothing, and grew her hair out, but if you took a second glance you could recognize that "she" was still pre-operative.

There was a period of a year or so that I had not seen Michael/Kelly, Kim would stop by to go into the unit herself.

One day a very pretty girl showed up to move out of storage, it was "Kelly". Kim showed up a couple of minutes later. After they left with the truck one of the guys who had worked for me the whole time mentioned that he "would love a shot at that girl". I couldn't resist telling him who it was. He didn't beleive me anyway.


Many years later I was managing an office (in a different industry) in Washington DC. One of my employees was an openly gay man named Robert. About six months after he started working there he came into my office and said that as of Monday he would be living as a woman and would eventually undergo a "gender reassignment". He asked if I would address him as "Roberta". I did. On Monday when he showed up it went relatively smoothly as most of the office staff was women and they didn't seem to care. The only issue we ran into was the question of which rest room "she" would use. I let her use the private one in my office until after surgery.

As it turned out, I ended up getting promoted and transfered before that ever happened. "Roberta" ended up leaving the company before surgery. A year ago Roberta looked me up on facebook. She is living in Atlanta and seems to have adjusted well.

Those are the two times that I came across this that I know of. In both cases they were likeable people who had a strong desire to make a major change in their life. It could not have been easy for either of them.

Thanks for sharing Samantha, I feel I have a lot to learn about this subject myself.

[Big_Daddy]

If it's how you feel inside, all the power to you. I encourage you to do what will make you happy.

I've never had the opprotunity (at least knowingly) to meet a transgendered individual. The only person I know of (who I've only seen in passing once) is the source of a rather nasty divorce in my girlfriend's family. I never knew any of the details of their personal life, so I was never going to touch that issue with a ten foot pole (not that's it's really any of my business).

One friend I've known since elementary (who later moved to a highschool with a larger gay community...Well, was actually expelled, though that's a rediculously long and infuriating story) is the closest I suppose I've encountered. I'm not sure where you would classify 'homosexual-visual~kei', but he was probably the most kind hearted individual I'd ever met. A little bit too flamboyant at times (in the eyes of a soft-spoken, reserved introvert, I suppose), but a great guy nonetheless.

As with others, I feel I've got a lot to learn about the topic.

[TBird1958]

Being "T" myself and being in a band with 4 of 5 members being "T" to one degree or another makes my life interesting.
Like any part of society we're all just slightly different from each other.
I am bi and I suppose the term "crossdresser would apply to me tho I really don't pass and anymore don't really care to.
Our singer is a transsexual having commpleted a number of surgeries a few years back, our keyboard player lives life as a woman fulltime now. Our guitarist is a bit like me, bi and a crossdresser.
Seattle is a great place to br "T"

[SamanthaCay]

Originally Posted by Joe Nerve

I am a firm believer in live and let live, and so long as nobody is hurting themselves or someone else I really do accept people for who they are and what they choose. I've seen pretty much everything imaginable, and nothing seems all that out of the ordinary to me, BUT... that doesn't mean I understand it all, and I do have a question.

I have a friend/aquaintance who is transgendered. When he finally came to the conclusion (in his late 20s) that this is who he/she is he slowly started to undergo the transformation. He was going to tons of support groups, therapists, and psychiatrists - all to help him become who he truly felt he was. What I don't understand is this. His becoming a woman put him in a lot of danger. He'd get hit on by unsuspecting guys, and found himself during his transition in many situations that could have literally gotten him killed. He/she (I still have trouble with that one as I knew him for years as a he) never consideered himself gay, still likes women and is basically making his life incredibly complicated. Why spend all that time and all that energy going though all kinds of therapy and psychoanalysis to have someone get comfortable with something that it seems is only going to make things 1000X more difficult? Wouldn't counseling towards accepting oneself as they were created, as opposed to going through radical, dangerous surgery (all surgery is dangerous), make more sense than this? What piece of this puzzle am I missing?

That is actually a very good question of why, why not try and cope?
Although I can't give you any definite answers here, what I can do is try my best to give you some insight as to why I personally made the decision to transition and as well offer a bit of information as to why others do as well.
By simply stating that although everyone's story is a bit different, a lot of what I will describe to you applies to a lot of people.

For me living as a male, some of the larger problems where;

That I always felt like I was hiding my true self it was an everyday every minute battle.
If it wasn't the stress of dealing with it around others it was the stress of feeling as though I was hiding from myself.

I was never comfortable with my body.
I suffered from a low in self esteem that all the “gee you look hansom” remarks in the world couldn't cure, I hated the way I looked and felt physically.

Because of my physical to mental differences I never felt comfortable in sexual relationships.
Throughout my teens and early twenties I had one girlfriend, one boyfriend and one trans woman friend,
all of which where more or less attempts to try and figure out what I liked and all of which failed. Because at the time I still had not realized it wasn't them it was me.

I guess those are the big three that first come to mind whenever I think about it.
These issues brought about a level of anxiety that was for the most part something none of you may ever understand.

Living with such anxiety compiled by not only the big three I mentioned above but as well what was on my plate outside of my gender identity issues was not a possibility.
I would often get so depressed and out of control that I would lose all will to live.
I dropped out of highschool, lost jobs, friends and at times family.
In my life as a male I lost count of the times I either contemplated or attempted suicide.

Living my life as I do today I am free from the big three I mentioned above.
I thank my lucky stars that I have had acceptance in most of my family and friends.
As far as the pros and cons of how I live today verses how I did before the pros of today far out weigh the cons.

I surly wont sit here and tell you it's all easy but then again nothing in life worth having is.
The struggles that I wage only make me stronger and to be able to say that I've made it through tough times in my life that most can't even fathom, makes me feel strong and proud.
If I had to die tomorrow I know that I could feel that I had lived a successful life and if I die of old age I'm sure you all will hear about it on the news.
I'm pretty freaking happy now.
most all negative aspects of life just role right on past me and I just let them keep on rolling.

Samantha.

[SamanthaCay]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

So which, if either, is a person born with both male and female reproductive organs?

Originally Posted by HEIST

That is a hermaphrodite.

No that's a usernameN/A



















J/K. HEIST had it right.

[bassplayer1494]

Interesting thread. All i can say is do what makes you happy in life and express yourself in any way that makes you feel good

[Skitch it!]

Enjoy the freedom, finding yourself can sometimes take an eternity ; )

[Muddslide]

I have gay and transgendered friends and family members and have always been an open friend to everyone who is open to being friendly.

While I realize gender and human sexuality is a big component of each individual, to me it is among the least important things I think about (if I think about it at all) when meeting or interacting with someone.

People should be who they are--who they feel they are inside even if it seemingly contradicts the superficial exterior--and be proud of it.

Love is a precious commodity and should be encouraged to thrive whenever it develops between adults regardless of their sexuality or gender.

It is shameful and sad that we still live in a world where certain "groups" can openly be derided and discrimninated against. I have more than once in my life had to diffuse situations or even become physically aggressive in order to prevent harm from coming to a LGBT friend or family member at the hands of some knuckle-dragging redneck.

I cannot imagine the courage and bravery it takes to "come out" or to live the life most comfortable and natural to you even though it might fly in the face of societal norms.

Hopefully more and more people will come to realize that we are all human, and that humanity isn't either/or, but is a continuum on which there are an infinite number of points where a person may identify or innately "fit."

Bravo to you, thread-starter. Thank you for sharing your humanity with us here publicly, and best of luck to you in all your pursuits.

[TheSuzie]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

So which, if either, is a person born with both male and female reproductive organs?

It is actually a bit more complicated than that. People who are born with ambiguous genitalia or a number of other conditions, that may or may not be obvious, have what is called an Intersex condition.

People don't actually develop two 100% complete sets of genitals. The differentiation of the single set of genitals can follow a number of ambiguous pathways. There are also intersex conditions that are related to production of hormones, lack of sensitivity to hormones or possibly over sensitivity to certain hormones. I am not an expert but this is my understanding.

Intersex Society of North America | A world free of shame, secrecy, and unwanted genital surgery