Handy Men - Frozen Sump Pump discharge help

anyonefortennis · #1 01-30-2011, 10:39 AM

So I heard my pump working overtime last night and then noticed the pit water was quite warm. Sign of frozen pipe and overheated pump.

The discharge goes outside about a foot off the house and then back underground. That elbow outside the house is what appears to be frozen. Currently have a heating pad around it to see if it will help.

Q1 - pit is about 80% full. Should I bail it by hand?

Q2 - how do I insulate that 2 ft or so of PVC outside to prevent this from reoccurring?

Q3 - how worried do I have to be with an unplugged pump in the winter? I assume as long as the ground is frozen, nothing should go on the pit, right? (had an unusually warm week this week so lots of snow melt, that's probably why the pit is full now).

Thanks!

Auzzie-Phoenix · #2 01-30-2011, 12:10 PM

They sell foam pipe insulation at most home improvement stores... that and a few zip ties should solve the insulating issue. Not sure if a heating pad will be that effective. If you're really careful you might be able to use a heat gun. Any way you look at it, it will take some time to get the pipe thawed out.

anyonefortennis · #3 01-30-2011, 12:34 PM

yeah, heating pad keeps turning itself off and it's probably too cold for it to work

Dump some boiling water on it? Not sure how else to thaw it.

I may go buy a shop vac to empty out the pit for now...

Jim Campbell · #4 01-30-2011, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anyonefortennis

So I heard my pump working overtime last night and then noticed the pit water was quite warm. Sign of frozen pipe and overheated pump.

The discharge goes outside about a foot off the house and then back underground. That elbow outside the house is what appears to be frozen. Currently have a heating pad around it to see if it will help.

Q1 - pit is about 80% full. Should I bail it by hand?

Q2 - how do I insulate that 2 ft or so of PVC outside to prevent this from reoccurring?

Q3 - how worried do I have to be with an unplugged pump in the winter? I assume as long as the ground is frozen, nothing should go on the pit, right? (had an unusually warm week this week so lots of snow melt, that's probably why the pit is full now).

Thanks!

would adding some anti freeze to clear the pit work.....if you insulate your pipe would it not freeze up farther down where it meets the cold ground....how often does it get cold enough to freeze,and why is there water in a sump at all if everything is frozen.....if it was warm enough to melt should it not have cleared the pit before it froze up again

cheapbasslovin · #5 01-30-2011, 12:46 PM

In the future you could install some heat tape around the pipe with the insulation. It is a strip of wire that runs the length of the pipe. When a thermostat closes an electrical circuit (set to around freezing) the wire heats up and keeps the pipe warm. It's not super inexpensive (sounds like you don't need much in your app) but it is pretty much set it and forget it for years. I don't know the best way to take care of your now problem. Maybe try to build a tent around it and get some heat blown in there some way in the short term.

anyonefortennis · #6 01-30-2011, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Campbell

would adding some anti freeze to clear the pit work.....if you insulate your pipe would it not freeze up farther down where it meets the cold ground....how often does it get cold enough to freeze,and why is there water in a sump at all if everything is frozen

There is water in the pit because we had a big snow storm last weekend (about a foot) and then an unusually warm week (mid 40s). Tons of snow melted in the last few days.

No it's back to the normal 20 degrees or so we are accustomed to in this area during the winter

According to my builder, the pipe is goes far enough underground so it doesn't freeze there.

My guess is that water in there froze because I have a backflow valve that may leave still water in the pipes. As long as water is moving it won't freeze.

anyonefortennis · #7 01-30-2011, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheapbasslovin

In the future you could install some heat tape around the pipe with the insulation. It is a strip of wire that runs the length of the pipe. When a thermostat closes an electrical circuit (set to around freezing) the wire heats up and keeps the pipe warm. It's not super inexpensive (sounds like you don't need much in your app) but it is pretty much set it and forget it for years. I don't know the best way to take care of your now problem. Maybe try to build a tent around it and get some heat blown in there some way in the short term.

Unfortunately, I have no outlet anywhere near to have it set and forget, otherwise, that thing would work great.

Pilgrim · #8 01-30-2011, 01:03 PM

The idea of adding antifreeze sounds good, but it depends on where the discharge goes. It's a contaminant to groundwater and will kill dogs or cats if they drink it, so it's probably not a good idea.

The heat tape is a common solution in cold areas; the foam insulation would be a less expensive solution if it works.

I would also look at re-locating the pipe and possibly moving it closer to the house or against the foundation where insulation might be more effective. Home improvement stores sell styrofoam "tents" that clamp on over exterior faucets and exposed sprinkler backflow preventers; there's no reason that such an enclosure wouldn't work for a pipe.

Chris K · #9 01-30-2011, 01:07 PM

Once had a similar elbow out-of - the - house-and -into-the ground problem. The thing is: the pipe usually is empty and water passes through it from time to time only. Ice is formed on the inside wall of the pipe until it freezes shut entirely. Insulation will not work since there is no warmth to be retained inside the pipe. I took measures similar to what cheapbasslovin wrote PLUS the insulation.

Auzzie-Phoenix · #10 01-30-2011, 02:03 PM

pouring boiling water on the pipe might crack it. If you have an extension cord long enough you could run it outside and use something like a ceramic heater to thaw the pipe... just make sure you have some sort of enclosure around the pipe to trap the heat from the heater.

It isn't cheap, but if I remember correctly, they do sell solar powered heat tape/coils. Might be worth looking into.

anyonefortennis · #11 01-30-2011, 02:32 PM

I was able to get warm tap water in (finally was able to get the elbow join out) and get a lot of the ice out. Still not draining though.

Hooked up the pump again to see if the pressure would push it out but no luck.

Pretty cold out so most likely it will freeze again tonight and I will have to start over *sigh*

anyonefortennis · #12 01-30-2011, 04:52 PM

After talking to my neighbors, the "winterizing" for our homes sump pumps is to just remove the plug on the outside pipe and let it dump on the side of the house and just plug it back in the spring.

Pit is now empty, crisis averted for now. Let's hope the "open hole" doesn't freeze now.

Thanks to everyone for your help.

fdeck · #13 01-30-2011, 05:39 PM

Plastic or metal pipe?

anyonefortennis · #14 01-30-2011, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fdeck

Plastic or metal pipe?

PVC

anyonefortennis · #15 04-17-2011, 07:23 PM

Well apparently the frozen pipes took their toll on the pump. Pump is dead and had 1/2 an inch of water in my basement. Barely saved my Mesa walkabout scout.

Time to install an alarm and battery backup...

Pilgrim · #16 04-17-2011, 08:15 PM

YEEEEEEGS.

Not good in any respect. Insurance????

I suspect that once you got the pipe open, the drain field beyond it was frozen and backed up the new water so it wouldn't flow.

You probably should revise that whole drainage system this summer. I hope a replacement sump pump doesn't cost too much.

anyonefortennis · #17 04-17-2011, 09:09 PM

Pump was about $150. Few hundred more for a dehumidifier, shop vac, fans and other supplies. I don't think the total was enough to even consider an insurance claim (given the $500 deductible). Pretty expensive lesson learned.

Luckily it's an unfinished basement so the drying job wasn't too bad considering. The wood and dry wall has been sprayed with bleach water to avoid mold.

Can anyone recommend an backup battery system? Seems that people only review theirs when they break so everything online has a 2 star review.

The system has an outside plug that I can just remove and voila, ready for winter and frozen grounds (it will just dump water on the side of the house then). This was my first year on the house so just never had to deal with it before. Turns out it normally drains out by the street so ice and snow being shoved in by plows, cars, and people just shoveling can easily cover the drain. Now that I know where it actually goes, it will be easy to keep an eye on it and keep it unclogged as much as I can.

iamlowsound · #18 04-17-2011, 09:39 PM

You should bury some 4inch drainage tile about 6 to 8 inches below ground have have it run to the drainage swale between your house and your neighbours house. Then run your sump pump into that. It takes all the water away from your house, which is what you want.

lowsound

anyonefortennis · #19 04-17-2011, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamlowsound

You should bury some 4inch drainage tile about 6 to 8 inches below ground have have it run to the drainage swale between your house and your neighbours house. Then run your sump pump into that. It takes all the water away from your house, which is what you want.

lowsound

(make sure to read my more recent post, as you may still be refering to the original problem, not the aftermath)

I have drain tile already that dumps water to the back backyard into a rocky area about 25 ft from the house and down hill. I see a small tube sticking out there in the rocks so I assume that's what it is anyway (I originally thought that was where the pump dumped).

Are you suggesting I re-route the pump discharge to go there instead of into the street and the storm drain?

mkandolf · #20 04-18-2011, 10:01 AM

Anyonefortennis,

getting back to the original post (I know way late on this)... My sump heads outside the same way yours does and I'm in Michigan up near the Thumb. I've NEVER had trouble with the PVC pipe freezing in the winter even as cold as it gets here. Mine is 1.5" pipe. I'd check to see if that pipe is clogged further down the line. Also I put a relief valve on mine just in case I had a clog so that it would blow off into the yard automatically.

Plus homeowners insurance normally doesn't cover sump pump problems but they will sell you a nice rider for your policy IF you install a nice backup system to your sump pump. They normally run around $200, the backup systems that is. Powered by a motorcycle battery or there are some that will pump off your water supply.

My lesson was on a finished basement. You were lucky. Sorry I can't recommend a battery system for you yet. My solution to replacing sump pumps every few years was to replace the 1/3HP unit with a 1/2HP unit. I check every couple months to make sure the float is clear and keep a portable pump handy.