Hey everyone, some new car buying advice?

[BurningSkies]

Hey everyone I've been on the prowl for a Honda Element LX. I've done my homework, know MSRP, Invoice, the 'range' listed online for what people are paying regionally, and finally have been 'negotiating' with one dealer while taking offers from another. The bad news is that I'm new to this and it will be my first new car.

I haven't discussed any of the financials with them at all. Saying that I'm only looking at two numbers right now, the "out the door, all costs included" final price and the 'car price' (I believe dealer net). I've not tipped my hand on any features, likes dislikes, etc. I know what the taxes, additional fees, even what the holdback for the dealer is.

What it comes down to, is that I've made a first offer, which was 300 below stated invoice. (still above the local index of what people are paying according to Edmunds).

The next day they called and counter offered at 500 bucks more than that (two hundred above invoice). It wasn't the salesman, but the 'sales manager' who pulled all the weasel car dealer tricks of throwing financing and monthlies and talked about their holdback, etc.

I've then taken my original offer number (conveniently on written on the back of the salesguy's card) to another dealer in the area that basically told me he could do better than that for pricing but wouldn't put it in writing. I really didn't like the dealer, salesman or how he acted on the floor. It's also an additional 20 miles out of the way for me.

Soo...at this point, I feel like I should counter with an offer that's in between...which would pretty much be invoice. Is this sound?

Here's some details, and what I feel are leveraging points:

-slow car sales right now, especially SUV's

-The 2008 model year is pretty much done. last year it was announced in mid-June and today the other dealer let slip that the new model will be announced soon and only +200$ or so.

-Its my money. There are other dealers and other prices. This car's been on the lot and I'm pretty sure they'd like to move it.

-Oh yeah, I haven't discussed financing or payment plans at all, which I believe helps my leveraging.

Now...I don't need any advice on payments, etc. that's all set and ready to go, but I'd like to know if I'm being reasonable and if they're being reasonable.

What do you all think?

[MJ5150]

In my opinion, you have to at least act like you really want the car to get the best deal. If the salesperson/sales manager get the vibe you are just looking for a final number to go price match somewhere else, they won't bargain with you.

Just curious....how do you get this far in the deal without letting the salesperson know what your likes and dislikes are as to features? Isn't that something they would have to know pretty early in the game so they can match you up to a car you want?

-Mike

[Philbiker]

Sounds like you're doing everything right. If you haven't read the "how to buy a car" primer on Edmunds yet, read it. The advice there is what I've used in the past. I don't mind letting the dealer and sales person make some money.

[BurningSkies]

Originally Posted by MJ5150

In my opinion, you have to at least act like you really want the car to get the best deal. If the salesperson/sales manager get the vibe you are just looking for a final number to go price match somewhere else, they won't bargain with you.

Just curious....how do you get this far in the deal without letting the salesperson know what your likes and dislikes are as to features? Isn't that something they would have to know pretty early in the game so they can match you up to a car you want?

-Mike

Basically, I walked in and told them that I was going to buy an Element LX, and that I was only shopping for a dealer at this point. I also said I could do either auto or manual as long as it was 4wd. All they only had one LX 4wd, and it was automatic. Basically when it comes to color, I said "its not make or break as long as its not orange". Other than that, the model is locked in pretty well.

I knew the features better than the sales guy (research research research) and when I asked him to 'remove a rear seat' he had to figure it out, while I already knew but wanted to see it.

[playinpearls]

honestly i would NEVER buy a new car. It is such a rip off. When a new car hits the road with your name or the banks name on the title, the value of the car drops 20-30% IMMEDIATELY. Its proven over and over again. You are paying taxes, dealer fees, delivery fees, and all kinds of other crap that is never charged on the "second time" purchase.

check this: http://www.daveramsey.com/etc/cms/wh...car_5153.htmlc

I can see that you are really wanting to get this car, but before you do you should shop around and find a used one of the same year. they are out there...manager demos, lease deals that have gone bad, or even been given up, some with only 3000 miles on them. 2008's were started in july of 07, do yourself a favor man, BUY USED!!

[BurningSkies]

Originally Posted by Philbiker

Sounds like you're doing everything right. If you haven't read the "how to buy a car" primer on Edmunds yet, read it. The advice there is what I've used in the past. I don't mind letting the dealer and sales person make some money.

I agree, but at the same time, I don't want to spend every penny I have.

I assume that their 'counter offer' is in expectation of a second one. I was thinking of waiting a day or two to get back to them and see what that does. I don't want to be unreasonable, but I figure that they've got to still have some wiggle room and want to get rid of basically what's an old car.

[casualmadness]

I jsut bought a new Honda accord a couple months ago. I did all my homework and got the info on what people were paying in my area. I took that printout in, in my pocket. After the test drive and all, the sales guy took me inside and did the who;e, "lemme go talk to my manager and see what the best deal I can get for you is." He comes back and announces..."I think you're going to be very happy with this! He never goes this low!" I looked at the number and it was almost $4000 more than what Edmunds said people are paying in this area for that car. I literally told the guy he was out of his mind. He started telling me how that was a great deal and it was well below sticker and I couldn't do better than that.

So I pulled out the info from Edmunds and showed it to him. I said, "this is what I will pay, out the door. No fees, no undercoating, no extras...nothing. This price is what I will pay right here, right now." He takes it to the sales manager.

Sales manager approaches...

Sheisty sales manager: Matt, this number is really low and lemme show you my invoice here that shows what I have to pay for these cars. Now if you consider the options that you are getting with your car, you'll see that with the quoted price, I'm only making a very small profit.

Me: Sorry man but this price (the Edmunds price) is what the car is selling for. This is what I'll pay. Not one cent more.

Sheisty sales manager: *wrings hands and looks worried* I'm afraid I just can't let it go for that price Matt. We're selling most of these for sticker thanks to the gas prices going so high. Most people aren't even trying to get a better deal because they will save so much on gas. And while I really want your business, I know that I can sell this car to someone else for my quoted price. So I jsut don't think that I can do it.

Me: Fair enough. You guys have a great day. [I stand up]

Sheisty sales manager: You're leaving?

Me: Yep. There are tons of Honda dealers in this city. I'll find an accord somehwere for the same price that others are paying (a la Edmunds).

***I start moving toward the door***

Sheisty sales manager: (loud and obnoxious sigh)...wait...


Me:


About two hours later, I drove off the lot in my new Honda...for the price Edmunds told me to pay (which was about $4000 below sticker).

And it's Edmunds FTW!

[disenchant]

Edumunds is a great resource. Personally I've always used Autobytel and gotten the absolute best deal. You get hooked up with an Autobytel dealer in your area and they give you a price that is always lower than you can get anywhere else. When we bought our Jeep Grand Cherokee we first went to two dealers and pitted them against one another (which is what my ex wanted to do) and we got an OK price. Then I went through Autobytel and got a price $5000 lower than the lowest price between the two dealers who "couldn't go lower." And it was on the Limited edition with all the bells and whistles! I've bought three cars through Autobytel and have always gotten the lowest price. I took the Autobytel price over to one of the dealers and they guy laughed at me and said that I must have misunderstood or I must be looking at a used or basic edition.

It's worth a try, just to see if you can get a lower price. I used it in 1998 and 2002 so hopefully it's still as great now as it was then.

[disenchant]

Originally Posted by playinpearls

honestly i would NEVER buy a new car. It is such a rip off. When a new car hits the road with your name or the banks name on the title, the value of the car drops 20-30% IMMEDIATELY. Its proven over and over again. You are paying taxes, dealer fees, delivery fees, and all kinds of other crap that is never charged on the "second time" purchase.

check this: http://www.daveramsey.com/etc/cms/wh...car_5153.htmlc

I can see that you are really wanting to get this car, but before you do you should shop around and find a used one of the same year. they are out there...manager demos, lease deals that have gone bad, or even been given up, some with only 3000 miles on them. 2008's were started in july of 07, do yourself a favor man, BUY USED!!

I agree, except sometimes it's easier to get financing on a new car.

[NJL]

as well, according to the forums of myfico.com, the auto lenders use a slightly different FICO score than the regular FICO score other lenders use. Supposedly, we are not able to access those scores...

check out those forums - there is a ton of info on auto lenders.. not so much anything on actual vehicles, but it's a personal financial site and geared to your credit rating.

just an fyi

[pedroims]

Just tell them how much you will paid for it. They always going to say something like: let me talk with my manager....

if the sticker says 20,000 offer 19,000 something like that, They always going to say something like: let me talk with my manager.... then the salesman will come back and say: we can sell it to you by 19.500 , then you can say well what 19,000 and will buy an extended warranty,

I bougth a new honda accord last year: stiker said 25,000 at the end I paid 24,000 and I got 6 years warranty plan.

As tip I would look for a demo car, you can get good deal,

[Visirale]

Have you driven one? I drove a drunk friend home in hers once... it was a horrible experience. It was driving a big floaty box around. The handling was garbageeeee. But if you like it...

[need4mospd]

Originally Posted by pedroims

Just tell them how much you will paid for it. They always going to say something like: let me talk with my manager....

if the sticker says 20,000 offer 19,000 something like that, They always going to say something like: let me talk with my manager.... then the salesman will come back and say: we can sell it to you by 19.500 , then you can say well what 19,000 and will buy an extended warranty,

I bougth a new honda accord last year: stiker said 25,000 at the end I paid 24,000 and I got 6 years warranty plan.

As tip I would look for a demo car, you can get good deal,

No offense, but you didn't do that great. The sticker on our last purchace was $29k and we paid $24k out the door with 0% financing and a 2 year/24k mile extension on the warantee. Was your $24k with 0%? If not, you're not paying $24k. The total number AFTER financing is FAR more important than any other number in the equation.

Your best bet, besides qualifying for their rediculously low financing that few people do, is to get yourself a loan somewhere else. Bring that check in (on the 31st of the month) for the most you're willing to spend on a car that you've already picked out. Say, "I want this car and here's the check. If you don't think it's a good enough price I'll take it somewhere else." If your price is fair and they want to sell that car, they usually have no choice but to take it.

One BIG point is that they want to control you from the second you walk in. They want you to become emotionally attached to the car. It starts with the test drive. If you're over-excited, they know you're more likely to get suckered. They want you to sit in their office for as long as possible while they "talk to the manager". Don't. Get up and walk out of their office, tell them you're going to walk around and you'll be back when you're done. Nothing scares a salesman more than not seeing a guaranteed sale sitting in his office when he returns from the breakroom....I mean manager's office. Do everything possible to turn the control of the sale from them to you. Remind them that you can take your money elsewhere. When they take too long with something, complain and tell them that you don't have time to sit there and play games. Anything you can do to have control will put you in a better position. Another reason that bringing in your own financing is a GREAT tactic for negotiating a killer price.

Hope this helps. If you don't feel comfortable with the deal, just walk out at anytime. They can't stop you. Another thought along those lines, don't under any circumstances let them have your keys to check out your trade-in until you've negotiated your price. On second thought, don't do a trade in unless you like throwing money away.

[Barkless Dog]

Usually they discount around $3,000 off list price, unless they have Manufacturer incentives (Honda Pilots they are giving them away-new model coming)

Also drive the car before you buy it. I know some who bought a new Lexus without driving it and it turned out to have problems.


Negotiate you bottom line price without your trade in. Then if you are doing a trade in, get the price after the deal, then take your car to a Car Max to see what they will give you. I have found around Chicago, they pay top dollar on used cars.

[BurningSkies]

Originally Posted by Visirale

Have you driven one? I drove a drunk friend home in hers once... it was a horrible experience. It was driving a big floaty box around. The handling was garbageeeee. But if you like it...

I did test drive it and while it wasn't as nice as my Maxima, it did do ok. I really only do around town and about 3 trips a year, so I expected a bit utilitarian. I really want it to move my gear and the band's gear and also to help my girl move her stuff...she's a painter and sculptor.

Originally Posted by pedroims

Just tell them how much you will paid for it. They always going to say something like: let me talk with my manager....

if the sticker says 20,000 offer 19,000 something like that, They always going to say something like: let me talk with my manager.... then the salesman will come back and say: we can sell it to you by 19.500 , then you can say well what 19,000 and will buy an extended warranty,

I bougth a new honda accord last year: stiker said 25,000 at the end I paid 24,000 and I got 6 years warranty plan.

As tip I would look for a demo car, you can get good deal,

Sticker on the car is 21 and change. We're sitting at 19,7 right now. Their offer was 19,9. My original was 19,4

Originally Posted by disenchant

I agree, except sometimes it's easier to get financing on a new car.

No 'traditional' car financing needed!
I have the $$$ on the way to my bank right now with a 0.00% interest payment over the life of the loan.

The update is that I just got a call back from the original sales man, I'll call him Mike...and we had a bit of a talk. He seems REAL eager to sell a car to me. So I offered 300 more than my original. He said if I'd do a CC deposit he'd do it right now. I refused, but said I would definitely come in Saturday AM and do the final deal. He hemmed and hawed, but then said he'd check with his sales manager again and call me back.

[pedroims]

Originally Posted by need4mospd

No offense, but you didn't do that great. The sticker on our last purchace was $29k and we paid $24k out the door with 0% financing and a 2 year/24k mile extension on the warantee. Was your $24k with 0%? If not, you're not paying $24k. The total number AFTER financing is FAR more important than any other number in the equation.

Your best bet, besides qualifying for their rediculously low financing that few people do, is to get yourself a loan somewhere else. Bring that check in (on the 31st of the month) for the most you're willing to spend on a car that you've already picked out. Say, "I want this car and here's the check. If you don't think it's a good enough price I'll take it somewhere else." If your price is fair and they want to sell that car, they usually have no choice but to take it.

One BIG point is that they want to control you from the second you walk in. They want you to become emotionally attached to the car. It starts with the test drive. If you're over-excited, they know you're more likely to get suckered. They want you to sit in their office for as long as possible while they "talk to the manager". Don't. Get up and walk out of their office, tell them you're going to walk around and you'll be back when you're done. Nothing scares a salesman more than not seeing a guaranteed sale sitting in his office when he returns from the breakroom....I mean manager's office. Do everything possible to turn the control of the sale from them to you. Remind them that you can take your money elsewhere. When they take too long with something, complain and tell them that you don't have time to sit there and play games. Anything you can do to have control will put you in a better position. Another reason that bringing in your own financing is a GREAT tactic for negotiating a killer price.

Hope this helps. If you don't feel comfortable with the deal, just walk out at anytime. They can't stop you. Another thought along those lines, don't under any circumstances let them have your keys to check out your trade-in until you've negotiated your price. On second thought, don't do a trade in unless you like throwing money away.

Not sure what the sticker price was, but is a honda accord V6 leather , navigation system bla bla bla... ( I belive the sticker price for this car is around 29K ) I paid 24,000 including taxes and fees that is for sure and they gave me 4% financing , I only have 2 years of credit history in the US so I do not think I have access to 0% financing

This was the first time I bought a car in the US. In Mexico there is not way to negotiate the price and financing intereset is around 17%

Buy a new car is not a smart idea, the depreciation is a huge charge to your pocket, ( 30% the first year??) I would like to say that buy a 3 years old used car and buy a warranty is the way to go

[Pilgrim]

I've sold cars for a living. Regardless of what the actual cost is to a dealer, you will pay more. If not, there's no point in his selling the car.

How MUCH more you pay depends on a number of factors, but primary among them is how popular the car model is. If the element is a hot-selling car in your market (regardless of how the market is doing in general) then you're not going to get it for $100 or any similar figure above dealer cost. He can sell the car for more $$ to the next buyer, so he doesn't have to play.

i remember selling Corvettes in 1979 when it was the Indy pace car. We started at full sticker. Period. I sold VW Diesel Rabbits during the gas crunch of the late 70's, and we allowed NO discount. People paid the retail sticker, because we had three people waiting for every car. OTOH, we had an ugly Chevy Nova in stock that was dark metallic green with a tan vinyl roof, and we'd gladly have taken any offer near cost for that darn thing.

However, as long as the dealer makes a fair profit (probably at least $1000 above his actual, real cost) then he should be willing to sell. You do OK and he does OK.

ALL that said - I've bought one new car in 1977, and I'll probably never buy another. It's a HUGE loss when you drive it off the dealership floor. I look for 2-3 year old cars with 50K miles or less. They're like new and cost much less.

[MakiSupaStar]

Here's what I do. I lowball the crap out them. To the point that they are almost insulted and hurt. If you hurt them they remember you. Tell them that this is what you want to pay. Tell them that you are patient, and let them try to sell the car for more. You'll call them back in a week. Don't call back. Call back in a week and a 1/2. Tell them that your offer still stands. They'll remember you. They will counter offer you something. Reject it and be calm. Tell them you will call back in a couple of days. Don't call back. Call back in a week with your counter offer. Most likely they will take it. It's worked three times for me.

[MonetBass]

Originally Posted by casualmadness

So I pulled out the info from Edmunds and showed it to him. I said, "this is what I will pay, out the door. No fees, no undercoating, no extras...nothing. This price is what I will pay right here, right now." He takes it to the sales manager.

Sales manager approaches...

Sheisty sales manager: Matt, this number is really low and lemme show you my invoice here that shows what I have to pay for these cars. Now if you consider the options that you are getting with your car, you'll see that with the quoted price, I'm only making a very small profit.

Me: Sorry man but this price (the Edmunds price) is what the car is selling for. This is what I'll pay. Not one cent more.

Sheisty sales manager: *wrings hands and looks worried* I'm afraid I just can't let it go for that price Matt. We're selling most of these for sticker thanks to the gas prices going so high. Most people aren't even trying to get a better deal because they will save so much on gas. And while I really want your business, I know that I can sell this car to someone else for my quoted price. So I jsut don't think that I can do it.

Me: Fair enough. You guys have a great day. [I stand up]

Sheisty sales manager: You're leaving?

Me: Yep. There are tons of Honda dealers in this city. I'll find an accord somehwere for the same price that others are paying (a la Edmunds).

***I start moving toward the door***

Sheisty sales manager: (loud and obnoxious sigh)...wait...


Me:


About two hours later, I drove off the lot in my new Honda...for the price Edmunds told me to pay (which was about $4000 below sticker).

And it's Edmunds FTW!

That's how to do it right there. I've always played hardball when it came to my trade-in (I take VERY good care of my cars) and negotiating the price. Note I said price and not payment! That is very important. And I wind up paying what I want, or I go somewhere else. Some guys will let you walk out the door, but most (especially if you wait to shop at the end of the month and the salespersons are looking to finish strong) will pull you back and meet your deal.

[Philbiker]

Originally Posted by pedroims

I bougth a new honda accord last year: stiker said 25,000 at the end I paid 24,000 and I got 6 years warranty plan.

Wow. Do yourself a favor and read the tutorial on buying a car at Edmund's next time you buy a car. Last new car I bought new had a window sticker near $24K I paid less than $19K for it. Warrantees are always a ripoff unless you're buying a really crappy car. Buying a Land Rover? Buy a warrantee. Buying an Accord? Keep your money. (That said I just spent $1700+ on new head gaskets for my Subaru which I did not buy a warrantee for! Doh!!)

Of course it depends on the car. If you can find something that's at the end of the model run, you can get some crazy sweet deals, that's what I did. These cars will have lots of manufacturer incentives, which help a lot. That is if you're not hung up on having the "latest and greatest" bells and whistles.

Speaking of which - someone mentioned that the Pilot is going to be a new model next year and so the Pilots are currently being cleared out. If you're completely sold on the Element, so be it, but it may be worth investigating. - Edit - just looked on Edmunds - there are large ($2500/3500) dealer incentives and financing incentives as well (low APR) on Pilots right now.