Hitler's Britain

[stratovani]

I dug this alternate history documentary out of the $5 bin at Walmart today, and if events had turned out the way they say things might have turned out, this would be a far different world we now live in. Conquering and occupying Britain would have allowed Hitler to invade the Soviet Union sooner than they actually did, bypassing the treacherous fall and winter season, thereby conquering them in a matter of weeks. European Resistance movements would not have lasted long without constant resupply from Britain, and Germany might have been able to develop the weapons of war - including nuclear weapons - necessary to attempt a full-scale invasion of the United States. I'm not sure it would have gotten to that point since in the event of an invasion England might have appealed to her empire and to the USA for help.

Since in reality the Germans lost the Battle of Britain, effectively ending Operation Sea Lion (the Invasion of Britain) and the possible consequences thereof, it occured to me that the pilots of the Royal Air Force, by winning the Battle of Britain, were probably the single greatest heroes of WW2.

Any thoughts, history buffs?

[basscooker]

i just watched a documentary about the british naval's destruction of the french fleet. the u.s. was supporting britain covertly before we officially entered the war effort. i think the french fleet's destruction was just as much responsible as the raf. if the nazi army had taken the french fleet, they would have had the second most formidable fleet in the world, including the most modern battlecruiser and aircraft carriers.

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Without assistance from the US, Europe would have been lost, but without the resistance from Europe the US could have been lost. There were a lot of heros in that war.

The Nazi's had some amazing (and scary) engineering on the go and were only a couple of years away from producing a transcontinental stealth bomber, which would have been capable of dropping nuclear weapons. Basically a bigger version of the Horten Ho 229 prototype.

[anotherlin]

Originally Posted by stratovani

Conquering and occupying Britain would have allowed Hitler to invade the Soviet Union sooner than they actually did, bypassing the treacherous fall and winter season, thereby conquering them in a matter of weeks.

Hitler attacked Russia a day after Napoleon did hundred years ago.

Napoleon lost because of winter.
Hitler was too proud, probably over-confident, he wanted to succeed where Napoleon failed.

It's difficult to predict future, but I guess it's as difficult to predict "alternative" history.

[stratovani]

Originally Posted by anotherlin

It's difficult to predict future, but I guess it's as difficult to predict "alternative" history.

Very true indeed. Billions of discrete events occur over a period of time, and altering any of these can have consequences that no one can foresee. Alternate histories are really just intellectual exercises, attempts to answer "what if" questions. For me it's fun to see what the various outcomes might be.

[Jools4001]

Originally Posted by stratovani

Since in reality the Germans lost the Battle of Britain, effectively ending Operation Sea Lion (the Invasion of Britain) and the possible consequences thereof, it occured to me that the pilots of the Royal Air Force, by winning the Battle of Britain, were probably the single greatest heroes of WW2.

Any thoughts, history buffs?

There is quite a bit of merit in the argument that the Battle of Britain was one of the key moments of the war and the RAF pilots are certainly some of my personal heros. When I was a kid, growing up in the 60's, I was lucky enough to have a best friend whose father had been a Spitfire pilot and we heard at first hand some of his stories. He was always reticent to talk about the heat of air battles (probably because he lost more than a few friends that way) but was more animated when telling us about how they used to dive down to get the speed they needed to get alongside V1 Doodlebugs and try to flip them over by getting their wingtip under the Doodlebug wing. The theory was that the airflow over their wingtip would cause extra lift on the wing of the V1 and flip it over into a spin. He told us that you weren't supposed to touch it, but how he'd been carpetted by his commanding officer for putting a gash in his wingtip by getting it wrong (and without upsetting the V1).

Any way, I digress, however heroic the RAF pilots I think they also needed a lot of luck, and the biggest lucky break they got was in Goering's overconfidence and mistaken analysis that the RAF were all but finished, and made tactical errors that cost the Luftwaffe victory.

Another thing that I think people in this country lose sight of is the fact that the most successful RAF squadrons in the Battle of Britain were the Polish squadrons, and a good case could be made that if the RAF had to depend entirely on sending newly trained, inexperienced pilots into action rather than being able to call on experienced Polish pilots who were battle hardened on the Eastern front, the outcome of the Battle of Britain might have been very different.

Churchill recognised the Polish contribution to the air war, a fact that seems completely lost now on the people who bemoan the fact that a lot of Polish people come over to the UK 'to do our jobs'...well, it's a good job their grandfathers did is all I have to say about that. How quickly we forget our debt of gratitude.

[GRAHAM SG1]

Great thread but you are forgetting two more heroes;

Namely R.J.Mitchell and Sydney Camm whose brilliant designs overcame the Luftwaffe in the hands of brave pilots .

One very major advantage we had was radar, without which the Luftwaffe may have won the Battle of Britain .

[stratovani]

Originally Posted by GRAHAM SG1

Great thread but you are forgetting two more heroes;

Namely R.J.Mitchell and Sydney Camm whose brilliant designs overcame the Luftwaffe in the hands of brave pilots .

One very major advantage we had was radar, without which the Luftwaffe may have won the Battle of Britain .

Very true about radar, but let me add one more thing, and that is probably the best plane engine in the war - the Rolls Royce Merlin engine.

[cjmodulus]

Wasn't there a guy who went into battle against the Germans with a claymore and a long bow? Now That dude was definitely a hero.
I've never been a huge history buff, other than the occasional History channel documentary. But I agree with whoever said that there were a lot of heroes in that war.

[96tbird]

The Merlin, was an engineering masterpiece. When installed in the P51 in place of it's Allison engine in an English experiment, transformed it into a most formidible multi-role fighter.

The more I see, read and hear about the war in Europe, the more I come to understand we were lucky for the arrogance of Hitler and his cronies. They made many mistakes. The RAF was a few days from done, and they held on just long enough for Hitler to decide that Britain was more formidable than he thought. Things were grim, invasion was viewed as "when" not "if". Hitler's next biggest mistake was the blitz, which only steeled Britain's resolve. And by then, supplies were arriving from North America.

[GRAHAM SG1]

But I agree with whoever said that there were a lot of heroes in that war.

I dont know about the use of the word `hero`, those who fought and died or lived throughout the war were dedicated and incredibly courageous unselfish people fighting for the future of their countries and people, I think many would be embarrassed if they knew they were called `heroes`, they were proud to be doing their duty in a way that most of us cannot fully imagine, all of them fought because they cared about the future of the human race and we all owe them a huge debt .

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Gotta agree with the beauty of the Merlin engine, amazing engineering!

Originally Posted by GRAHAM SG1

I dont know about the use of the word `hero`, those who fought and died or lived throughout the war were dedicated and incredibly courageous unselfish people fighting for the future of their countries and people, I think many would be embarrassed if they knew they were called `heroes`, they were proud to be doing their duty in a way that most of us cannot fully imagine, all of them fought because they cared about the future of the human race and we all owe them a huge debt .

Hero - A person, typically a man, who is admired for courage or noble qualities.

I'd say that could be attributed to a lot of people who protected the free world in that war. And obviously a lot of heroines too!

Originally Posted by cjmodulus

Wasn't there a guy who went into battle against the Germans with a claymore and a long bow? Now That dude was definitely a hero.
I've never been a huge history buff, other than the occasional History channel documentary. But I agree with whoever said that there were a lot of heroes in that war.

That'd be Fighting Jack!

Jack Churchill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[odin70]

Originally Posted by i_got_a_mohawk

Without assistance from the US, Europe would have been lost, but without the resistance from Europe the US could have been lost. There were a lot of heros in that war.

The war in Europe was between Russia and Germany and the winner of ww2 was Stalin. He took half of Europe. Hitler wanted peace with England, but they refused because of Poland. England did absolutely nothing to help Poland during the war and in 45 they gave the whole country to Russia. Insted of helping Poland they dragged the rest of the world into the war e.g neutral Norway and later USA.

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Considering the scale of the great war that had decimated europe only 20 years previously, the UK, France etc etc wanted to avoid war at all cost. The invasion of Poland was the tipping point that started the war for the UK.

Before that point they wanted to end hostilities diplomatically. Easy to scorn it with hindsight, but I'm pretty sure attitudes were different at that point, so soon after The Great War . . .

I'd also say that it wasn't England's fault that Norway got dragged into it, I'd blame the 3rd Reich or Stalins regime and thier marching over & trying to conquer everything that did that.

[odin70]

Churchill wanted to spread the war. That was Englands only hope at that time (1940) The people that worked around him was very open about this after the war. Norway was a neutral country and England attacked German ships (with permission to sail here) within our borders. They also took German prisoners and planted sea mines. That is a fact. Its not true that Germany wanted to attack everything. Only a fool would do that. They wanted Russia.

[jmattbassplaya]

The war in Europe wasn't between Russia and Germany. Hitler and Stalin had a truce in place for a decent period of time before Germany decided to fight the war on two fronts.

[odin70]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

The war in Europe wasn't between Russia and Germany. Hitler and Stalin had a truce in place for a decent period of time before Germany decided to fight the war on two fronts.

Tactics. Hitlers goal was "lebensraum" for the German population and he looked to the east. Even Stalin knew that. Why do you think Germany attacked Poland?
Read Mein kampf.. its all there. It was all about Russia vs Germany. England and France did not want Germany to become a world power like themselves, thats the reason behind the western front. Hitler wanted to avoid a conflict with England

[cjmodulus]

Originally Posted by GRAHAM SG1

I dont know about the use of the word `hero`, those who fought and died or lived throughout the war were dedicated and incredibly courageous unselfish people fighting for the future of their countries and people, I think many would be embarrassed if they knew they were called `heroes`, they were proud to be doing their duty in a way that most of us cannot fully imagine, all of them fought because they cared about the future of the human race and we all owe them a huge debt .

I get what you're saying, and of course we owe all those who served a great debts. I was trying to say that there were a lot of key figures who made important decisions or contributions that helped us win. Perhaps 'heroes' wasn't a specific enough term.

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by odin70

Tactics. Even Stalin knew that. Why do you think Germany attacked Poland? Read Mein kampf

What does that even mean? If Hitler just wanted Russia then he would of gone for Russia. Stalin had little to no friends within the Allies' ranks before the start of WWII. However, he did have a non-aggression pact in place with Hitler that even listed out how they would split Eastern Europe once Germany took control. See here:

Molotov

I think you have your history wrong...

[Mr. Pickles]

The Spitfire was inferior to the MEs. Not to dimininsh the role of the pilots, but I'd estimate that Fighter Command and its network were the real reason Hitler never established air superiority over Great Britain. That and the tactical adjustments they made such as using earthenwork E Pens to limit damage from Luftwaffe bombing runs and using inflatable planes to give the appearance of a much larger air force.