Jared Lee Loughner and mental illness

[Marley's Ghost]

PLEASE - NO POLITICS! - THIS IS A MENTAL HEALTH DISCUSSION!

So here's my theory:


He is likely BPD and/or NPD. Google search if you are not familiar. Intrinsically, he would have refused any suggestion that he was deranged and only gone to counseling if it was mandated as part of an arrest. That is a component of the disorder. He likely experienced some sort of serious childhood trauma, emotional or physical. The abandonment he experienced when his girlfriend left him triggered a BPD rage reaction and a wave of psychotic episodes, as well as fueling his hatred of women and authority figures. I'm theorizing that he and mom have some serious issues in their relationship as well. His attack of Giffords was a projection of his repressed/sublimated rage against mom and his girlfriend. Some conjecture here, but it's better than any other theory out there

Two things have been pointed out that weigh against Schizophrenia.

1) The organization behind the planning of the crime would be very difficult for a Schizophrenic to pull off
2) Schizophrenics are rarely this violent.

I still think the profile matches BPD with NPD or HPD present.

[hbarcat]

It's impossible to make any diagnoses of specific mental illness in the absence of an extensive face to face evaluation by a professional.

However, it's obvious Mr. Loughner is severely mentally ill and it's certainly more than a behavioral disorder resulting from unfortunate episodes in his past. His brain just isn't working properly.

[Marley's Ghost]

Originally Posted by hbarcat

It's impossible to make any diagnoses of specific mental illness in the absence of an extensive face to face evaluation by a professional.

I agree to a point. However, it is highly unlikely that he will ever consent to one or be forthcoming if he does. And you can infer certain characteristics from the evidence and historical data. Criminal Profilers do it all the time.

[hbarcat]

This past week the theme in the news has been the need for the "tone" of public discourse to become more "civil" and less divisive. I think this is a meaningless distraction from what we should really be talking about - what we should be doing about the many mentally ill or mentally incompetent individuals in society who are a danger to themselves and others.

Even though many of them are homeless and live miserable lives our policy has been to ignore them unless they break the law and then we arrest them. If they break the law seriously enough then we throw them in prison where they're no better off than on the street. Even the ones who have a home often can't take care of themselves properly and have difficulty getting along with others. Often, one of them has an "episode" and kills a bunch of people for no logical reason.

We should be seriously considering an active program to identify the mentally ill and mentally incompetent and determine (while being careful of their rights) if many of them would be better off losing their self determination status and being placed in group homes or institutionalized.

This is a big problem and we've ignored it for way too long.

[hbarcat]

Originally Posted by Marley's Ghost

I agree to a point. However, it is highly unlikely that he will ever consent to one or be forthcoming if he does. And you can infer certain characteristics from the evidence and historical data. Criminal Profilers do it all the time.

That makes sense. But I do know that I personally don't have anywhere near the knowledge of mental illness to contribute much useful to this particular discussion.

It is interesting, though, so I'll just keep an eye on this thread and see what gets posted.

[Skitch it!]

Fanatic narcissist - including paranoid features. An individual whose self-esteem was severely arrested during childhood, who usually displays major paranoid tendencies, and who holds on to an illusion of omnipotence. These people are fighting delusions of insignificance and lost value, and trying to re-establish their self-esteem through grandiose fantasies and self-reinforcement. When unable to gain recognition of support from others, they take on the role of a heroic or worshipped person with a grandiose mission plus -

Use of illegal drugs especially Psychedelic's in an effort to change pre-existing brain chemistry and perception, as a result exacerbating the pre-existing condition and snowballing.

That tragedy was, what he considered his grandiose mission of recognition imo.

[Marley's Ghost]

^^^ - good analysis of a branch of NPD. I see co-morbidity with BPD as well, since it seems to be clear that the abandonment by his girlfriend triggered an escalation of his disordered behavior.

[Marley's Ghost]

Originally Posted by hbarcat

This past week the theme in the news has been the need for the "tone" of public discourse to become more "civil" and less divisive. I think this is a meaningless distraction from what we should really be talking about - what we should be doing about the many mentally ill or mentally incompetent individuals in society who are a danger to themselves and others.

Even though many of them are homeless and live miserable lives our policy has been to ignore them unless they break the law and then we arrest them. If they break the law seriously enough then we throw them in prison where they're no better off than on the street. Even the ones who have a home often can't take care of themselves properly and have difficulty getting along with others. Often, one of them has an "episode" and kills a bunch of people for no logical reason.

We should be seriously considering an active program to identify the mentally ill and mentally incompetent and determine (while being careful of their rights) if many of them would be better off losing their self determination status and being placed in group homes or institutionalized.

This is a big problem and we've ignored it for way too long.

We cannot possibly figure out what to do about the mental health crisis unless we raise the level of awareness and educate the layman. Personality disorders in particular have many different manifestations and are very poorly understood by law enforcement, educators and even many mental health practitioners.

[Skitch it!]

Originally Posted by Marley's Ghost

^^^ - good analysis of a branch of NPD. I see co-morbidity with BPD as well, since it seems to be clear that the abandonment by his girlfriend triggered an escalation of his disordered behavior.

And also,

'We cannot possibly figure out what to do about the mental health crisis unless we raise the level of awareness and educate the layman. Personality disorders in particular have many different manifestations and are very poorly understood by law enforcement, educators and even many mental health practitioners'.

May I ask if you work in this field Marley? Sounds like you may?

[arbitrary]

some conjecture? yeah, only some.

[Marley's Ghost]

I do have a degree in Psychology and some clinical experience, but I do not currently practice in the field. My knowledge of PD's comes from my experience with a close relative that has been diagnosed with BPD and HPD, and I have done extensive research in this arena.

[arbitrary]

HPD, histronic pd? That diagnosis is ridiculous and is why they're getting rid of it for the new dsm. In general I have difficulty with personality disorders as a diagnostic criteria as they tend to result in glorified name calling (I'm fine w/Jared being called names btw) that we lump the human experience and behaviors into that don't always adequately explain what is going on; but we accept it as fact too easily/readily. But in relation to this thread, armchair diagnosis is fairly haphazard and is all conjecture.

Are you referring to borderline pd or bipolar?

[Skitch it!]

Originally Posted by Marley's Ghost

I do have a degree in Psychology and some clinical experience, but I do not currently practice in the field. My knowledge of PD's comes from my experience with a close relative that has been diagnosed with BPD and HPD, and I have done extensive research in this arena.

Get back into practising my good man, your needed ; )

[MJ5150]

Originally Posted by Marley's Ghost

However, it is highly unlikely that he will ever consent to one or be forthcoming if he does.

Sit the dude in an electric chair, put your finger on the on switch, and then see if he agrees to a one on one evaluation.

-Mike

[Skitch it!]

Originally Posted by MJ5150

Sit the dude in an electric chair, put your finger on the on switch, and then see if he agrees to a one on one evaluation.

-Mike

, I feel he should have been sectioned some time before this event, judging by the reactions of his tutor/fellow classmates, and the fact that he took a weapon into class, that should have set the alarm bells ringing. Same here in the U.K., Mental Health Services seem to be overstretched, resulting in tragic yet avoidable consequences. They also need more experienced workers to recognise the characteristics.

[arbitrary]

More money would be nice for mental health services, but yea...that's another conversation. And by nice, I mean needed if society would like to see more being done.

[LiquidMidnight]

Originally Posted by Marley's Ghost

We cannot possibly figure out what to do about the mental health crisis unless we raise the level of awareness and educate the layman. Personality disorders in particular have many different manifestations and are very poorly understood by law enforcement, educators and even many mental health practitioners.

I'm kind of ambivalent about that. On one hand, I do wish people understood more about psychology, particularly research in psychology (nothing major, but a base understanding of inferential statistics and concepts like internal validity, etc.). It would definitely help if people knew the warning signs of suicide, anoxeria caused by body dismorphic disorder, etc. On the other hand, there is enough armchair psychology going around (and enough armchair sociology on TB in my experience to warrant an actual graduate program in it). I cringe at the thought of people walking around with a DSM, thinking they're qualified to hand out mental health diagnosis.

[Marley's Ghost]

Originally Posted by arbitrary

HPD, histronic pd? That diagnosis is ridiculous and is why they're getting rid of it for the new dsm. In general I have difficulty with personality disorders as a diagnostic criteria as they tend to result in glorified name calling (I'm fine w/Jared being called names btw) that we lump the human experience and behaviors into that don't always adequately explain what is going on; but we accept it as fact too easily/readily. But in relation to this thread, armchair diagnosis is fairly haphazard and is all conjecture.

Are you referring to borderline pd or bipolar?

BPD = Borderline Personality Disorder

Most clinicans despise PD's because they are too hard to diagnose and they are nearly impossible to treat. Unfortunately, Bipolar and Schizophrenic are widely misdiagnosed where PD's are in fact relevant. And to add to the confusion Bipolar and Psychotic episodes are often co-morbid with BPD. It's a messy situation, but one that needs to be addressed asap.

[Skitch it!]

Originally Posted by LiquidMidnight

I'm kind of ambivalent about that. On one hand, I do wish people understood more about psychology, particularly research in psychology (nothing major, but a base understanding of inferential statistics and concepts like internal validity, etc.). It would definitely help if people knew the warning signs of suicide, anoxeria caused by body dismorphic disorder, etc. On the other hand, there is enough armchair psychology going around (and enough armchair sociology on TB in my experience to warrant an actual graduate program in it). I cringe at the thought of people walking around with a DSM, thinking they're qualified to hand out mental health diagnosis.

I agree, it does rely to an extent on an individual workers perception, it certainly cannot all be based on textbook reference, casework experience is quite a key.

[Clark Dark]

From what I've read and heard this kid has never been 72'd and that's probably a big reason why he's not been formally diagnosed.