Jazz Clubs are Underrated

[thecount1]

Well they should not be. But I think I know why. I took the jazz plant and started digging its roots:

- In high school they don't teach you to appreciate jazz music. Unless you pick an instrument to play in the high school band.
- Many kids don't pick an instrument as they take the risk of being bullied by the football team.
- Gone are the days when they make you take piano lessons, and when you make a mistake they slap your hands with a ruler. Now they have an excuse to sue anybody for anything. There is nothing wrong with taking a beating once in a while.
- The Beatles, Jimi Hendrix, Elvis, etc...They kicked the Dukes out of people's minds.
- News history only reported that non-white people were bad influence as they had bad habits. I am pretty sure they didn't talk about Chet Baker, who had such a bad drug problem too.
- Many people don't know their own city's official and unofficial landmarks...

What is an unofficial landmark?
- Blue Note in New York (and i lived there for many years)
A friend made a survey to New Yorkers for a college project, with these results:

--40% think this is a restaurant
--30% know it is a bar. 20% don't know what music they have, 10% said blues.
--20% know this is one of the most famous jazz clubs in the world. 10% were from out of town.
--10% never heard of this place.

- Jazz Showcase in Chicago, closed since a couple years ago.
First time in the city, attending a wedding. I asked where this place was. None of Chicago-born and raised people that I asked ever heard of this place. I had to look it up on the web. Went there saw the Heath Brothers and the place was completely dead. 20 people at most.

- Blue Note Tokyo
After cursing at my digital translator, I was able to give some directions to the cab driver. After driving around for a while, the cab didn't find it. The next day I tried again, place was half empty to Milt Jackson.

If there were:
- Streets and buildings named after famous jazz musicians, maybe people would take the time to question who these people are.
- Jazz history is required in high school for many grades. Bring back the ruler-way of teaching.
- All jazz clubs (some do), have a section for minors and students, at a cheaper rate.
- White jazz musicians honor rendition to the standards they play (and become famous for) and the musicians that ORIGINALLY composed them.
- List the jazz clubs in those books they have inside hotels' rooms as places to visit. Also in that magazine you see on the planes.
- When they sell your song to a tv commercial, one of your requirements should show, "music by..."

It is not a perfect world and it will never be.

[Rune Bivrin]

I can't help but wonder if your problems are similar to Chet Bakers...

[JonathanD]

Is this a "I'm getting older and the things that were hip when I was a kid are no longer cool" thread?

[One Drop]

When I was in Tennessee driving around, no one could tell me where the Mississippi river was, even though their towns were a few hundred yards from it.

[KJung]

I reject the OP's hypothesis.

The Blue Note in NY, IMO has turned into an expensive, cheezy, overpriced tourist trap IMO.

The reason people don't know where jazz clubs are is because it's a style of music that was once popular (over a generation ago) and no longer is. I bet they can't tell you where the 'Doo Wap' clubs are either

Just because we musician's continue to appreciate the difficulty and art of playing in the jazz style and improvising doesn't mean that anyone else should know or care.

Painfully IMO and IME.

K

[jomahu]

Originally Posted by thecount1

- Gone are the days when they make you take piano lessons, and when you make a mistake they slap your hands with a ruler. Now they have an excuse to sue anybody for anything. There is nothing wrong with taking a beating once in a while.

IME, that's the most horrid way to teach a kid music.

[Pacman]

Originally Posted by JonathanD

Is this a "I'm getting older and the things that were hip when I was a kid are no longer cool" thread?

No, I think this is a "I'm 14 and have no identity of my own, so I'm going to parrot my old, bitter teacher" thread.

[burk48237]

The Jazz Showcase in Chicago isn't closed for good. They lost their lease and are opening in a new building in June.

As far as people not recognizing the names of Jazz Clubs, I'll bet 40% of New Yorkers couldn't name four Supreme Court Justices, three Cabinet members, don't know where the Gettysberg address was given, and couldn't tell you whose in Grants tomb. It just means 40% of us (americans) are fairly dumb. And who can blame us, they sure don't teach history in HS.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

At the risk of stirring things up, a big part of the problem lies with jazz musicians themselves and their poor attitudes toward music choice and marketing. If I'm going to show up and pay any attention to a bunch of guys playing standards, they'd better be saying something of their own over them; if they're just up there calling tunes and playing the same old **** over them, I'll be out the door pretty quick. If the band is playing originals, or has originals mixed in, they need to either:

1) Understand who they're playing for, and make sure the music is not a complete mismatch for the audience;

2) Win over the audience with energy, intensity, honesty, and rapport;

3) Pack the place out with their own fans, enabling them to play whatever the hell they want with audience support.

4) Not care about any of the above, or whether people like what they're hearing enough to stay or come back.


We just lost a great jazz club here in Louisville, and the reasons were many. Chief among them were lack of media support (if the local orchestra or ballet farts, they get a full page review complete with scratch-n-sniff sample in the paper, but if the jazz club brought in Kenny Barron, Jean Michel Pilc, Fred Hersch, etc., not a word would be printed), and (IMO) a plethora of mediocre and/or esoteric/difficult-to-market-without-some-effort-on-the-part-of-the-band jazz on the "off nights". People who would come to see thrown together jam sessionish, "uh, I dunno, what exhausted old chestnut to you wanna play now" type of shows, or shows where the band almost completely ignored the audience did not entice people to want to come back. A lot of that is on the musicians.

Slight rant here, but: with more or less "normal" people in the audience, would it kill more jazz groups to include a few arrangements of more current or popular material in their sets? The groups I played in who did this got great response from the audience, and a level of interaction from the audience that other groups (as a rule) did not get. Also, groups like Lynne Arriale's and Brad Mehldau's trios who do some of this material tend to have more diverse audiences, including folks younger than, say, 70. Just my opinion, of course, and I'll be climbing into my flame suit now.

[Jeremy Crockett]

Originally Posted by Pacman

No, I think this is a "I'm 14 and have no identity of my own, so I'm going to parrot my old, bitter teacher" thread.

Haa haaa! I wanna buy you a beer!

[jomahu]

+1 to chris. but it also has to do with fans as well. i see a lot of jazzheads refusing to accept jazz that is not "standard" or "smooth."
i knew someone who played a set of avant-garde interpretations of Miles davis music....redundant, i know. someone had the gall to go up to the trumpeter during his set while he was playing and tell him that miles would be ashamed if he heard this music. ruh?

that said, i love wally's here in boston. different music every night, no cover, amazing musicians.

[Mark Wilson]

Maybe with Herbie Hancock winning the "Best Album of the Year" grammy, people will start to appreciate Jazz more, and go out to learn more.

[burk48237]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

At the risk of stirring things up, a big part of the problem lies with jazz musicians themselves and their poor attitudes toward music choice and marketing. If I'm going to show up and pay any attention to a bunch of guys playing standards, they'd better be saying something of their own over them; if they're just up there calling tunes and playing the same old **** over them, I'll be out the door pretty quick. If the band is playing originals, or has originals mixed in, they need to either:

1) Understand who they're playing for, and make sure the music is not a complete mismatch for the audience;

2) Win over the audience with energy, intensity, honesty, and rapport;

3) Pack the place out with their own fans, enabling them to play whatever the hell they want with audience support.

4) Not care about any of the above, or whether people like what they're hearing enough to stay or come back.


We just lost a great jazz club here in Louisville, and the reasons were many. Chief among them were lack of media support (if the local orchestra or ballet farts, they get a full page review complete with scratch-n-sniff sample in the paper, but if the jazz club brought in Kenny Barron, Jean Michel Pilc, Fred Hersch, etc., not a word would be printed), and (IMO) a plethora of mediocre and/or esoteric/difficult-to-market-without-some-effort-on-the-part-of-the-band jazz on the "off nights". People who would come to see thrown together jam sessionish, "uh, I dunno, what exhausted old chestnut to you wanna play now" type of shows, or shows where the band almost completely ignored the audience did not entice people to want to come back. A lot of that is on the musicians.

Slight rant here, but: with more or less "normal" people in the audience, would it kill more jazz groups to include a few arrangements of more current or popular material in their sets? The groups I played in who did this got great response from the audience, and a level of interaction from the audience that other groups (as a rule) did not get. Also, groups like Lynne Arriale's and Brad Mehldau's trios who do some of this material tend to have more diverse audiences, including folks younger than, say, 70. Just my opinion, of course, and I'll be climbing into my flame suit now.

Great post!

[Pacman]

Maybe it's because, much like metal in the early 90's, many jazz musicians are opposed to evolving. I can't count how many jazzers I know are still playing bop. Don't even get me started on the acoustic bass snobbery. Guys like Marcus Miller, Mike Stern, and others that are trying to stretch the idiom are the minority, in my experience.

Maybe, like Chris sort of said, if jazz musicians put any effort at all into being relevant to a larger audience it would be more popular.


....or we could just continue to blame others for our own problems...

[Baryonyx]

Oh noes, another meandering and pointless thread from thecount1!

[thecount1]

Chris2112,

Let me ask you this. Do you know what is like to:
- Watch dizzy play...Live! If you know who that is?
- Be introduced to max roach, and talk to the guy.
- Look at the pictures at Birdland, 60 years of history. Be there, smells like ancient ghosts.

If you don't know then you are pointless and you should be reading something else...maybe TMZ. I bet there something good with angelina and brad.

[Pacman]

Count - So if you haven't seen dizzy play live, you're not allowed to have an opinion? If you haven't met one of a thousand jazz legends, you're not allowed to discuss the pointlessness of this thread? If you haven't seen pictures of Birdland, you're a pointless musician?

Look, I don't know how old you are (but you're giving me an idea), but this is TalkBASS, not Talkbebop, or TalkJazz. There are plenty of people here who have a valid opinion, and have no idea what you're talking about. Really, every time you start one of these meandering threads, I have no idea what you're talking about. But that doesn't give you the right to address them as you did.

Bottom line though - don't complain that your favorite art form isn't relevant anymore. Instead, make it relevant. In other words, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

:

Originally Posted by Pacman

Don't even get me started on the acoustic bass snobbery.

There's no such thing as acoustic bass snobbery. DB's are just clearly *better*, that's all.

[IconBasser]

amen.












(heh)

[Marcus Johnson]

This is not going to end well.