Kayak question

Marial · #1 07-07-2011, 10:12 AM

Anyone out there paddle? I used to a LONG time ago and I'm thinking of getting back into it. I have a question, however. Back in the dim mists of time I went to summer camp in North Carolina and there was a kayak variant that was used at the time, I think they were called C2s. Instead of sitting with your feet forward as in a kayak you kneeled as you do in a canoe. I haven't been able to find anything like this and I was wondering if anyone besides me has even heard of them and, if so, are they still made and where I might find them. Thanks!

R. Laevinus · #2 07-07-2011, 10:16 AM

Never heard of or saw such a thing. I know there are canoes with removable decks that can be paddled from the midships position with a kayak paddle; I have my doubts about the tracking abilities of such a craft, though.

I'd say just go for a nice touring kayak; or, better yet, if you don't plan to do much blue or whitewater travel, just get yourself a nice canoe. They're classier (IMO), less $$$ for what you get, and can carry a load of gear (and passengers!) on sweet portaging trips.

Marial · #3 07-07-2011, 10:19 AM

I plan to mostly paddle around Lake Washington and Lake Union here in Seattle, but I'd like to get something that will work for paddling around the San Juan Islands, so something near-shore sea-worthy would be good.

I'm not surprised you've never heard of such thing, no one around here has either, but all the hardcore white water paddlers at camp used them. This was back in the early eighties, though.

4Mal · #4 07-07-2011, 10:20 AM

Craft selection should be made in relation to the water where it will be used. These days I'm a lot more oriented towards SUP than kayak. Somewhere down the line, I'll add a decent touring boat to the fold though.

R. Laevinus · #5 07-07-2011, 10:27 AM

Hmm... strange. All I can dig up when I run a search is some ridiculous personal catamaran thing they call the "W Kayak", which seems to me laughable and patently ridiculous. (I acknowledge that I am a creature of tradition and habit though, so don't mind me.)

If you plan to do mostly lake paddling, then I think a canoe is definitely the way to go. If you were to get a 16 or 17 foot Prospector, it would handle fair-sized swell just fine, lightly loaded. I'd also suggest looking into removable fabric canoe decks; they have some now with integrated spray skirts, just like those on kayaks, and some use removable aluminium or fibreglass poles to keep the deck from bellying under weight of spray.

I've paddled extensively in Lake Superior in such a boat, and there were (are?) many folks who canoe rapids in such craft; so I would guess that a canoe with a deck would be, in the hands of a competent paddler, just as seaworthy as a kayak (or moreso, what with the greater freeboard, larger rocker and longer waterline), but with much greater versatility in terms of cargo.

Then again, I just like canoes a lot, so maybe I'm biased.

Marial · #6 07-07-2011, 10:29 AM

Hmmm... sounds like a canoe with a deck is the way to go. I doubt I could sit in a kayak anyway due to back issues and the world's tightest hamstrings.....

R. Laevinus · #7 07-07-2011, 10:36 AM

Canoe Spray Decks by North Water Paddlesports Equipment - Paddling.net

Spray Deck Standard Features

These should get you started.

I'm a great lover of canoes, myself. Don't get me wrong, I'm also very fond of kayaks; but I like canoes more. Paddling a canoe solo does have a bit of a learning curve, I admit, but with a little ballast it's not so hard.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions - like you, I've been out of it for a few years, but I'm in the midst of planning a week-long backcountry trip for the end of the summer, so I've been practicing and boning up on all the new-fangled toys!

Marial · #8 07-07-2011, 10:39 AM

Sweet! Thanks!

geeza · #9 07-07-2011, 10:42 AM

Here's a good resource for you: Kayaking & Canoeing | Kayak, Canoe, and Paddle Resource: Paddling.net.
FWIW, I know what you're talking about and I may have heard about them on that site. Check out the boat reviews and especially the forums.

Marial · #10 07-07-2011, 10:44 AM

Thanks! And glad to hear I'm not misremembering or crazy.

Jonyak · #11 07-07-2011, 11:07 AM

C1 or C2 is a kayak paddled kneeling, and with a single bladed paddle.

They don't really make them, you usualy have to buy a kayak and outfit it yourself.

I have been whitewater kayaking for 20 years and have both worked in the industry and taught for half of that.

alot of places will call a C-1 or C-2 a canoe. but generaly and open canoe is considered an OC-1 or an OC-2, the number signifying the amount of people it carries.

Marial · #12 07-07-2011, 11:15 AM

Ah! Thanks!!!!

R. Laevinus · #13 07-07-2011, 11:56 AM

Aha!

I've usually heard of those referred to as 'playboats', not in a derogatory fashion, but just as they are typically intended (I could be wrong, don't shoot me) for whitewater kayaking and not much else.

Jonyak · #14 07-07-2011, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R. Laevinus

Aha!

I've usually heard of those referred to as 'playboats', not in a derogatory fashion, but just as they are typically intended (I could be wrong, don't shoot me) for whitewater kayaking and not much else.

A playboat is a specific kind of whitewater kayak.

usualy shorter and has more rocker than a river running kayak.

and then there are creeking boats which have a lot of volume.

all of them can be converted from K-1 (kayak) to C-1 (Canoe)

Playboat

Creek Boat

river runnign boat

R. Laevinus · #15 07-07-2011, 01:38 PM

I see. Very interesting, thanks! My kayaking experience is pretty limited - maybe 40 hours in touring kayaks, and perhaps another 4 on blue water.

I'm much more at home with a one-ended paddle.

Jonyak · #16 07-07-2011, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R. Laevinus

I see. Very interesting, thanks! My kayaking experience is pretty limited - maybe 40 hours in touring kayaks, and perhaps another 4 on blue water.

I'm much more at home with a one-ended paddle.

ya thats how I got my start, and then I saw all the kayakers having so much fun in the rapids and started that.

there are alot of people who do pretty hardcore open canoe river running. especially up around me.

Simo98 · #17 07-07-2011, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R. Laevinus

I've usually heard of those referred to as 'playboats', not in a derogatory fashion, but just as they are typically intended (I could be wrong, don't shoot me) for whitewater kayaking and not much else.

"Playboats" here are the same sort of thing (paddled seated however), but adapted for the surf. I've seen some crazy stuff with them. Check out "Surf Kayaking" on youtube or something, pretty impressive stuff.

anonymous122511 · #18 07-07-2011, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marial

Hmmm... sounds like a canoe with a deck is the way to go. I doubt I could sit in a kayak anyway due to back issues and the world's tightest hamstrings.....

Have you investigated renting some different boats to see what might work for you? Without actually paddling a boat you won't know what it will feel like. I also have some chronic back issues and am currently paddling a Necky Tahsis which although it has a tight cockpit is a pretty comfortable boat to sit in.

What do you really need a boat to do? What's important?
Ease of entry/exit vs. leg leverage.
Turning vs tracking.
Stability vs. speed.
Payload.
Portability.
Durability.
Cost.
How often are you going to paddle?

Not all of the above "vs" are always opposed to each other. For example a Valley Nordkapp is fast in a straight line and has enough rocker that you can quickly turn it into a large power boat wake. Canoes and SUP are cool but having paddled in the PacNW all my life a kayak seems to make the most sense for this climate especially if it's gonna be your only boat.

Marial · #19 07-07-2011, 05:10 PM

Definitely stability over speed
reasonable amount of cargo space
easy to lift up onto a car rack
easy in and out
durable, but I definitely don't need anything for shooting rapids

Ideally I'll be out paddling around the lake several times a week, once in a while paddling around Golden Gardens and environs, and maybe one a year getting up to the San Juans. Nothing major, no epic journeys across green or blue water.

anonymous122511 · #20 07-07-2011, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marial

Definitely stability over speed
reasonable amount of cargo space
easy to lift up onto a car rack
easy in and out
durable, but I definitely don't need anything for shooting rapids

Ideally I'll be out paddling around the lake several times a week, once in a while paddling around Golden Gardens and environs, and maybe one a year getting up to the San Juans. Nothing major, no epic journeys across green or blue water.

Something like this Necky Manitou 14 sounds like the type of boat that would serve you well...large cockpit and super comfortable seats in these. It's around a grand new in plastic and $1400-ish in glass.

Durability is going to mean different things in different applications. Where a plastic boat might be more durable in the river a glass boat is less susceptible to UV damage and heat deformation and is more durable in the long run for a touring boat. Certainly glass boats are less effort and more fun to paddle in the ocean. Easier to get up onto a car rack too.

Disclaimer: While I currently own a Necky and have recommended one I have no affiliation with or particular affinity for that company. If I could afford one I'd have a kevlar Nordkaap. There are a lot of great boats out there. Try a bunch before you buy one.