makes you wonder.

[vbasscustom]

watching something like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_9p2eepVQo
makes you wonder about how exactly we got here. not bashing religion, if you have faith i applaud it. some amazing, seemily impossible things have occured in the span of human existance, and these are just a few. seems pretty out there (literally and figurativly) but what if we were placed here, as an expirament maybe? i dont know im just sittin here thinkin about stuff.

[Yerf Dog]

TL;DW

[::::BASSIST::::]

As far as I understand crop circles have been proven to be a hoax...

Right?

[DudeistMonk]

Lol the epic music is just too much...What is that the LOTR soundtrack?

There is enough evidence on earth to prove that we evolved and weren't just placed here. Unless you are arguing that the first microbes where placed here as a test.

Although it could be a test in the matrix sense, our entire reality being contained in another reality...or at least you can't disprove it.

Also please send large quantities of whatever you are smoking to:

Dudiest Monk
XXX Some road in NJ,
Newark, NJ, 07104

[billhilly66]

No kidding. I'm in for an ounce of that stuff too!

[Relic]

Nothing wrong with deep thinking and wondering about the universe.

[jmattbassplaya]

Looks like art work to me

[Jimbob Jones]

There's an awful lot science hasn't been able to explain yet. Trouble is scientists hate admiting that fact.

[DudeistMonk]

Originally Posted by Relic

Nothing wrong with deep thinking and wondering about the universe.

Of course not, I'm just lacking the proper 'aid' to the process.

In fact, I'm sorta hung up with the idea that all existence exists only as a possibility and that nothing really exists, yet at the same time everything exists. Like some sort of grand paradox. As the only explanation for something from nothing (the universe out of the big bang) is that nothing actually exists, but everything could exist and hence does exist in some sort of round about manner.

Like if the big bang never actually happened and this entire universe is still contained at that single point, a possible outcome among trillions and trillions.

[Relic]

Originally Posted by DudeistMonk

Of course not, I'm just lacking the proper 'aid' to the process.

In fact, I'm sorta hung up with the idea that all existence exists only as a possibility and that nothing really exists, yet at the same time everything exists. Like some sort of grand paradox. As the only explanation for something from nothing (the universe out of the big bang) is that nothing actually exists, but everything could exist and hence does exist in some sort of round about manner.

Like if the big bang never actually happened and this entire universe is still contained at that single point, a possible outcome among trillions and trillions.

Cool stuff. We're going to have to get together over a few brews one of these days. I can talk about that sort of stuff for hours.

See, I'm convinced that we're existing in a "matrix-ish" reality. Dumb analogy I know, but what I'm thinking is that our whole perception of what "is" and what is reality is contained wholly within the limit of our brain's capacity and shaped by our 5 senses.
I used this analogy before in a recent thread but it fits here too - imagine a fish in the ocean. It has a reality that exists and is 100% real, but that same fish is completely limited to what it's senses and brain can compute - water, food, danger, etc.
It has no concept nor the remotest ability to know what it's like to dance in a club, fall in love, or take a trip to the moon - so far beyond it's limited comprehension that it's simply impossible for that fish to experience or understand our "reality".
Now who's to say that we're not the same as that fish albeit on a different level?
Just stuff to ponder..

[EBodious]

why am i so drawn to these discussions...

Originally Posted by DudeistMonk

Of course not, I'm just lacking the proper 'aid' to the process.

In fact, I'm sorta hung up with the idea that all existence exists only as a possibility and that nothing really exists, yet at the same time everything exists. Like some sort of grand paradox. As the only explanation for something from nothing (the universe out of the big bang) is that nothing actually exists, but everything could exist and hence does exist in some sort of round about manner.

Like if the big bang never actually happened and this entire universe is still contained at that single point, a possible outcome among trillions and trillions.

yeah, there is a lot to wrap one's head around in this stuff. the buddhists say that the only reality is here and now. eveything else is an unprovable, illusion. and, the here and now is, of course, temporary. however, i believe this is more about the human mind's perception (or understanding) of the universe rather than the "actual" universe. whether or not there is an actual universe can't be proven, but, since we all operate in it, the current common ground of working models we use are hanging in there pretty well.

my understanding of big bang is that everything did not come from nothing (conservation of matter/energy). but rather, everything in our universe was VERY tightly packed together and then it burst. eventually, it will all get pulled back together again, till it is so tight that it bursts again. which is more or less what the hindu creation story says of the universe, except that it all happens on the tongue of a god (i believe).

i think physics is also working with the idea that every moment is a set of infinite possibilities that create infinite parallel universes.

and, as they say in california, *slurp in air* 'ere

[EBodious]

Originally Posted by Jimbob Jones

There's an awful lot science hasn't been able to explain yet. Trouble is scientists hate admiting that fact.

careful now, the scientists are lurking here too....

[MatticusMania]

Originally Posted by EBodious

careful now, the scientists are lurking here too....

And theyre armed with chemicals...

[Relic]

Originally Posted by EBodious

why am i so drawn to these discussions...



yeah, there is a lot to wrap one's head around in this stuff. the buddhists say that the only reality is here and now. eveything else is an unprovable, illusion. and, the here and now is, of course, temporary. however, i believe this is more about the human mind's perception (or understanding) of the universe rather than the "actual" universe. whether or not there is an actual universe can't be proven, but, since we all operate in it, the current common ground of working models we use are hanging in there pretty well.

my understanding of big bang is that everything did not come from nothing (conservation of matter/energy). but rather, everything in our universe was VERY tightly packed together and then it burst. eventually, it will all get pulled back together again, till it is so tight that it bursts again. which is more or less what the hindu creation story says of the universe, except that it all happens on the tongue of a god (i believe).

i think physics is also working with the idea that every moment is a set of infinite possibilities that create infinite parallel universes.

and, as they say in california, *slurp in air* 'ere

This is really starting to go "deja vous" in regards to this thread and another veeeery similar one about a week or so ago. But yeah, the whole "conservation of energy" principle throws me.
We're so used to something having a comfortable start and finish/beginning and end that the concept of something that can "never be created or destroyed, only transformed" seems bizarre. All matter gets recycled endlessly when you think about it and if all energy gets transformed without start or finish, it kind of makes you think that there might be some sort of afterlife where who we are becomes something else. Don't know what but if everything's forever, always changing maybe we are too...?

[CrispyDelicious]

Relic, the term you are looking for is Cognitively Closed; such as how dogs are forever cognitively closed to calculus, much like your fish. And yes, I think there is certainly something to the idea that there is something beyond what we now know, simply due to the limitations that our physical forms place upon us.

I do consider the possibility of there being something beyond what we can perceive and comprehend, but that perhaps we are cognitively closed to it. In other words, there may be much, MUCH more to the universe, or even beyond it, but our forms are so incapable of perceiving it that we couldn't even begin to guess what lies beyond.

In a sense, I connect that thought to religion. As an agnostic, I don't outright discount the possibility of there being some cosmic power infinitely greater than our own, but I am led to believe that if it DOES exist, we are so incapable of even beginning to understand it, that any attempt to do so is entirely futile; no different, perhaps, as a fish learning calculus - simply impossible. Which is perhaps why religion exists in the first place - humans attempting to understand an aspect of existence that they are incapable of, so they attribute human qualities to it to make it more tangible.

[EBodious]

Originally Posted by Relic

This is really starting to go "deja vous" in regards to this thread and another veeeery similar one about a week or so ago. But yeah, the whole "conservation of energy" principle throws me.
We're so used to something having a comfortable start and finish/beginning and end that the concept of something that can "never be created or destroyed, only transformed" seems bizarre. All matter gets recycled endlessly when you think about it and if all energy gets transformed without start or finish, it kind of makes you think that there might be some sort of afterlife where who we are becomes something else. Don't know what but if everything's forever, always changing maybe we are too...?

funny, after a lot of science education, back in my day, conservation seems totally reasonable. i appreciate getting a chance to ponder it as a weird idea. i don't like the expression "throw it away" (as in garbage) cause there really is no such thing. it just goes somewhere else. if we all understood that, i like to believe we would think differently about our packaging choices.

whoops, hijack..

anyways, it works for me that there is a finite amount of matter (energy) in the universe. going round 'n' round in circles. and i do think that there in non-quantifiable "energy" in living things that recirculates (though, not over and over again in a contained individual. individual, separate beings is, IMHO, an illusion of how our brains perceive reality and organize the data from our senses.

i guess i shouldn't have missed the after-life thread.

btw, we are literally made of that which we consume. all the cells of our bodies are replaced about every seven years (IIRC). so, yeah, you've changed a few times...

whatcha eatin?

[Relic]

Originally Posted by CrispyDelicious

Relic, the term you are looking for is Cognitively Closed; such as how dogs are forever cognitively closed to calculus, much like your fish. And yes, I think there is certainly something to the idea that there is something beyond what we now know, simply due to the limitations that our physical forms place upon us.

I do consider the possibility of there being something beyond what we can perceive and comprehend, but that perhaps we are cognitively closed to it. In other words, there may be much, MUCH more to the universe, or even beyond it, but our forms are so incapable of perceiving it that we couldn't even begin to guess what lies beyond.

In a sense, I connect that thought to religion. As an agnostic, I don't outright discount the possibility of there being some cosmic power infinitely greater than our own, but I am led to believe that if it DOES exist, we are so incapable of even beginning to understand it, that any attempt to do so is entirely futile; no different, perhaps, as a fish learning calculus - simply impossible. Which is perhaps why religion exists in the first place - humans attempting to understand an aspect of existence that they are incapable of, so they attribute human qualities to it to make it more tangible.

"cognitively closed" - absolutely, thanks for that.
Your post pretty much lays out my own thoughts nearly to the tee.

[EBodious]

Originally Posted by CrispyDelicious

Relic, the term you are looking for is Cognitively Closed; such as how dogs are forever cognitively closed to calculus, much like your fish. And yes, I think there is certainly something to the idea that there is something beyond what we now know, simply due to the limitations that our physical forms place upon us.

I do consider the possibility of there being something beyond what we can perceive and comprehend, but that perhaps we are cognitively closed to it. In other words, there may be much, MUCH more to the universe, or even beyond it, but our forms are so incapable of perceiving it that we couldn't even begin to guess what lies beyond.

In a sense, I connect that thought to religion. As an agnostic, I don't outright discount the possibility of there being some cosmic power infinitely greater than our own, but I am led to believe that if it DOES exist, we are so incapable of even beginning to understand it, that any attempt to do so is entirely futile; no different, perhaps, as a fish learning calculus - simply impossible. Which is perhaps why religion exists in the first place - humans attempting to understand an aspect of existence that they are incapable of, so they attribute human qualities to it to make it more tangible.

old joke:

wanna make god laugh?



tell him (sic) your plans.



religion certainly can be seen as a human attempt to create a context to help us talk about the fact that we sense that there is something more to existence than we can cognitively grasp. plato talked about "forms" and our seeing them as shadows (or reflections?) on a cave wall. in other words, we can't really get the true "form" of anything just a weakened aspect of it.

i like the fish (and dog) analogies cause they point to the idea that the human definition of "consciousness" is pretentious in the sense that we limit it to only being our perception of consciousness. IMHO, every living being has a "consciousness" but a different one than ours.

and since i am way out here, i think of "god" as a process rather than a being. the process of energy organizing into matter, matter organizing into atoms, atoms organizing into replicating dna....

[sloasdaylight]

Originally Posted by DudeistMonk

Although it could be a test in the matrix sense, our entire reality being contained in another reality...or at least you can't disprove it.

[Deluge Of Sound]

Originally Posted by EBodious

religion certainly can be seen as a human attempt to create a context to help us talk about the fact that we sense that there is something more to existence than we can cognitively grasp. plato talked about "forms" and our seeing them as shadows (or reflections?) on a cave wall. in other words, we can't really get the true "form" of anything just a weakened aspect of it.

i like the fish (and dog) analogies cause they point to the idea that the human definition of "consciousness" is pretentious in the sense that we limit it to only being our perception of consciousness. IMHO, every living being has a "consciousness" but a different one than ours.

and since i am way out here, i think of "god" as a process rather than a being. the process of energy organizing into matter, matter organizing into atoms, atoms organizing into replicating dna....

Science can't explain human consciousness.
Human consciousness created science.

I see that as a snag.

But, in this instance you either believe
A) that out of nothing, for no reason, the universe burst into being.
or
B) that an entity that is beyond human identification, observation, or communication created it.

Now, I don't know about anyone else, but those two statements seem like litmus tests for faith... as in, if you can believe that, we've got the rest of the story covered kind of faith.

Personally, I've got no problem saying I can't possibly have any idea what happened at the beginning of the universe.