Males in modern society - guilty until proven innocent?

[Relic]

Great article yesterday in WSJ. As a father of 3 kids, I wholeheartedly agree with it.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...s_opinion_main

Eek! A Male!
Treating all men as potential predators doesn't make our kids safer.

By LENORE SKENAZY

Last week, the lieutenant governor of Massachusetts, Timothy Murray, noticed smoke coming out of a minivan in his hometown of Worcester. He raced over and pulled out two small children, moments before the van's tire exploded into flames. At which point, according to the AP account, the kids' grandmother, who had been driving, nearly punched our hero in the face.

Why?

Mr. Murray said she told him she thought he might be a kidnapper.

And so it goes these days, when almost any man who has anything to do with a child can find himself suspected of being a creep. I call it "Worst-First" thinking: Gripped by pedophile panic, we jump to the very worst, even least likely, conclusion first. Then we congratulate ourselves for being so vigilant.

Consider the Iowa daycare center where Nichole Adkins works. The one male aide employed there, she told me in an interview, is not allowed to change diapers. "In fact," Ms. Adkins said, "he has been asked to leave the classroom when diapering was happening."

Now, a guy turned on by diaper changes has got to be even rarer than a guy turned on by Sponge Bob. But "Worst-First" thinking means suspecting the motives of any man who chooses to work around kids.

Maybe the daycare center felt it had to be extra cautious, to avoid lawsuits. But regular folk are suspicious, too. Last February, a woman followed a man around at a store berating him for clutching a pile of girls' panties. "I can't believe this! You're disgusting. This is a public place, you pervert!" she said—until the guy, who posted about the episode on a website, fished out his ID. He was a clerk restocking the underwear department.

Given the level of distrust, is it any wonder that, as the London Telegraph reported last month, the British Musicians' Union warned its members they are no longer to touch a child's fingers, even to position them correctly on the keys? Or that a public pool in Sydney, Australia last fall prohibited boys from changing in the same locker room as the men? (According to the Daily Telegraph in Sydney, the men demanded this, fearing false accusations.)

What's really ironic about all this emphasis on perverts is that it's making us think like them. Remember the story that broke right before Christmas? The FBI warned law-enforcement agencies that the new Video Barbie could be used to make kiddie porn. The warning was not intended for the public but it leaked out. TV news celebrated the joy of the season by telling parents that any man nice enough to play dolls with their daughters could really be videotaping "under their little skirts!" as one Fox News reporter said.

This queasy climate is making men think twice about things they used to do unselfconsciously. A friend of mine, Eric Kozak, was working for a while as a courier. Driving around an unfamiliar neighborhood, he says, "I got lost. I saw a couple kids by the side of the road and rolled down my window to ask, 'Where is such-and-such road?' They ran off screaming."

Another dad told me about taking his three-year-old to play football in the local park, where he'd help organize the slightly older kids into a game. Over time, one of the kids started to look up to him. "He wanted to stand close to me, wanted approval, Dad stuff, I guess. And because of this whole 'stranger danger' mentality, I could sense this sort of wary disapproval from the few other parents at the playground. So I just stopped going."

And that's not the worst. In England in 2006, BBC News reported the story of a bricklayer who spotted a toddler at the side of the road. As he later testified at a hearing, he didn't stop to help for fear he'd be accused of trying to abduct her. You know: A man driving around with a little girl in his car? She ended up at a pond and drowned.

We think we're protecting our kids by treating all men as potential predators. But that's not a society that's safe. Just sick.

[DRafalske]

Like that fellow in the last paragraph, I'm a little bit ashamed to admit that if I saw a child who appeared to be lost or something I would not bother to help - for the exact same reason.

[hrodbert696]

Some crimes just hit this nerve and set off all kinds of paranoid fantasies, to the exclusion of common sense. My university has a center for the study of child abuse housed in the same building with my department, and I get to see the information they post out on their bulletin boards while I'm waiting for the elevator. One that caught my attention had to do with internet predators and minors; it turns out that the vast, vast majority of the victims are teenaged girls, basically running away from home with "boyfriends" they meet online. It's not eight and ten year olds giving out personal information and getting stalked. Now, the teenagers being exploited is a serious problem; but it's not the same scenario as the paranoia you typically get about kids online.

My dad was an attorney and handled a lot of cases having to do with camps and sunday schools and things where sexual predators got access to kids. The measures that prevent these things from happening are really pretty basic; always have two adults in the room, put windows in all the doors, stuff like that. No need for this crazy intrusive paranoia.

[DwaynieAD]

I was playing a game with my 1 year old at chuck e cheese last week, another little boy wandered over to us and was standing next to me. I didn't even notice him until his mother started yelling at me to stay away from her son. I was speechless, my GF stepped in and let the mother know that if she wasn't "a deadbeat piece of **** mother and watched her son he wouldn't have wandered away from her"

I still think to myself *** when i think about it tho.

[KsToaDangr]

Originally Posted by DwaynieAD

I was playing a game with my 1 year old at chuck e cheese last week, another little boy wandered over to us and was standing next to me. I didn't even notice him until his mother started yelling at me to stay away from her son. I was speechless, my GF stepped in and let the mother know that if she wasn't "a deadbeat piece of **** mother and watched her son he wouldn't have wandered away from her"

I still think to myself *** when i think about it tho.

something similar happened to me a few years back. i was at chuck e cheese, and a little kid kept walking up to me, asking if i would give him tickets or tokens. i asked him where his mom was, and he pointed her out. she was sitting in a booth, discussing fashion with another woman. i walked the kid up to her, and stood there for 5 minutes before she even realized i was there. i told her what her son had been doing, and she yelled at me for 'trying to snatch her child'. my response was 'maybe if you actually paid your kid some attention, he wouldn't be walking up to total strangers, asking them to give him things.'

[Jonyak]

I want to get into scouting as a leader, because when I grew up I was really into and had alot of good times, and alot of good male role models.

but I am worried. It really stresses me, what can I do what can't I do?

[Skitch it!]

Originally Posted by hrodbert696

Some crimes just hit this nerve and set off all kinds of paranoid fantasies, to the exclusion of common sense. My university has a center for the study of child abuse housed in the same building with my department, and I get to see the information they post out on their bulletin boards while I'm waiting for the elevator. One that caught my attention had to do with internet predators and minors; it turns out that the vast, vast majority of the victims are teenaged girls, basically running away from home with "boyfriends" they meet online. It's not eight and ten year olds giving out personal information and getting stalked. Now, the teenagers being exploited is a serious problem; but it's not the same scenario as the paranoia you typically get about kids online.

My dad was an attorney and handled a lot of cases having to do with camps and sunday schools and things where sexual predators got access to kids. The measures that prevent these things from happening are really pretty basic; always have two adults in the room, put windows in all the doors, stuff like that. No need for this crazy intrusive paranoia.

+1 The media are attuned to to feeding paranoia in sensitive subjects such as this, it sells good copy.

[sbass traveller]

Originally Posted by Jonyak

I want to get into scouting as a leader, because when I grew up I was really into and had alot of good times, and alot of good male role models.

but I am worried. It really stresses me, what can I do what can't I do?

Man, just go for it. Don't be scared to provide children with a positive non-threatening role model.

Some parents will always be overprotective of their children and buy into the hype that everyone else is out to abduct a child for nefarious purposes (but those kinds of parents probably won't enroll their kids in scouts for that very reason, so fear not). In fact, the only thing it will actually help to do is raise children to be even more paranoid and socially awkward around strangers IMO.

Barbie camera used to make child pornography?! I guess it could, but I think it takes a sick mind to immediately jump to a conclusion like that in the first place.

It's sad that some people have to think twice about helping or even talking to children for fear of being ostracized, but I guess that's just the society we've allowed ourselves to create.

[Relic]

sbass traveller - are you ethnic Chinese? (I noticed your location)

Do you find this same odd "male guiltiness" to also be evident in modern Chinese society?
I have lived abroad and suspected that (at least within the recent past) this thing seems to be more an Anglo/Western phenomenon. I spent time in several Slavic countries (Poland, Czech Republic, Russia) and found that this whole male "guilt" thing to be almost non-existent there, though this was a few years back so it might very well be different now.

[macaroni tony]

::BRAVO! BRAVO!::

Bill Burr said something about this in one of his standups. Something about how he used to like to rustle kids' hair, going "Hey there, little Timmy," and the like, but he can't do it anymore. Well...it sounded pretty funny coming from him.

Relic, thank you so much for posting this article. I never thought it would come up.

I've got a few stories on this, but I'll share a mild one. As a teenager, I used to work at the local rollerskating rink. In the summer, a lot of YMCA's and Boys & Girls clubs used to come down there every day. Being basically a giant child all of my life, some of the kids grew a liking to me. This is pretty much how it always is. But if any of them fell and I do my job and help them up, I couldn't help but feel a piercing gaze from some of the parents and volunteers. One guy even went so far as to intercept me every time I tried to help one of the kids up so they wouldn't get trampled while they were on the ground. That was the most....awkward feeling in the world.

I just love kids. I love the fact that we could affect how their future (and the future of the world) will be based on how we treat them. Thankfully, the people in my relatively small circle know that, and I don't have to be insulted in my day to day life like I did in other settings. I even hesitate to wave to a little kid who's staring at me these days.

Originally Posted by sbass traveller

It's sad that some people have to think twice about helping or even talking to children for fear of being ostracized, but I guess that's just the society we've allowed ourselves to create.

Yup

[macaroni tony]

psshhh...another "male guilt" thread

[sbass traveller]

Originally Posted by Relic

sbass traveller - are you ethnic Chinese? (I noticed your location)

Do you find this same odd "male guiltiness" to also be evident in modern Chinese society?
I have lived abroad and suspected that (at least within the recent past) this thing seems to be more an Anglo/Western phenomenon. I spent time in several Slavic countries (Poland, Czech Republic, Russia) and found that this whole male "guilt" thing to be almost non-existent there, though this was a few years back so it might very well be different now.

In response to your first question - nope. I'm Canadian with from what I know to be a mostly Anglo-Saxon heritage through and through, but I do have a Chinese step-mother... not that it's really that relevant.

From what I've seen and heard about in the 4 months I've been here, I don't think the whole male guiltiness thing is that big of an issue. I've never read, heard or seen any issues regarding sexual abuse of children, but sadly, I'm sure it exists but probably isn't talked about often. And on the other side, child abuse as we in the west know it, is not of much concern here. Working as an English teacher I've seen teachers pull students ears, hit them with a switch, or full on slap them in the face, but sadly, it's just the norm. Of course, there are other social issues that need addressing (involving gender roles and status among other things), but now is neither the time nor the place to open that can of worms.

Gotta admit though, I was worried about this so called "male guilt complex" before I took my job as a Teacher. I teach Grade 7 & 8 (12-14 year olds), and having really no experience around children didn't help. But working with children has been a really positive experience for me, and has really helped me to realize how stupid this male guilt thing is.

[Relic]

Originally Posted by macaroni tony

::BRAVO! BRAVO!::

Bill Burr said something about this in one of his standups. Something about how he used to like to rustle kids' hair, going "Hey there, little Timmy," and the like, but he can't do it anymore. Well...it sounded pretty funny coming from him.

Relic, thank you so much for posting this article. I never thought it would come up.

I've got a few stories on this, but I'll share a mild one. As a teenager, I used to work at the local rollerskating rink. In the summer, a lot of YMCA's and Boys & Girls clubs used to come down there every day. Being basically a giant child all of my life, some of the kids grew a liking to me. This is pretty much how it always is. But if any of them fell and I do my job and help them up, I couldn't help but feel a piercing gaze from some of the parents and volunteers. One guy even went so far as to intercept me every time I tried to help one of the kids up so they wouldn't get trampled while they were on the ground. That was the most....awkward feeling in the world.

I just love kids. I love the fact that we could affect how their future (and the future of the world) will be based on how we treat them. Thankfully, the people in my relatively small circle know that, and I don't have to be insulted in my day to day life like I did in other settings. I even hesitate to wave to a little kid who's staring at me these days.

I'm right there with you - I absolutely love kids. (even though, saying that out loud in public would undoubtedly be frowned upon..) But I'm the sort of dad who kids gravitate to - I play with my own, crack them up and give them attention as much as I can and as a result, a lot of other kids end up liking me. I cant count how many times, I've been in a playground with my kids when they were little, pushing them down the sliding board, chasing them around, etc when before long, I'm pushing 15 kids down the slide and chasing them ALL... This has caused a few really stupid situations. Nothing major, I've never been yelled at or accused of anything but I have been the recipient of a few dirty looks or piercing glares. To be absolutely honest - I'm a good dad who loves his kids and to be even remotely considered weirdo simply because I love interacting with kids, is not only infuriating but actually kind of hurts to be honest.

[Relic]

Originally Posted by sbass traveller

In response to your first question - nope. I'm Canadian with from what I know to be a mostly Anglo-Saxon heritage through and through, but I do have a Chinese step-mother... not that it's really that relevant.

From what I've seen and heard about in the 4 months I've been here, I don't think the whole male guiltiness thing is that big of an issue. I've never read, heard or seen any issues regarding sexual abuse of children, but sadly, I'm sure it exists but probably isn't talked about often. And on the other side, child abuse as we in the west know it, is not of much concern here. Working as an English teacher I've seen teachers pull students ears, hit them with a switch, or full on slap them in the face, but sadly, it's just the norm. Of course, there are other social issues that need addressing (involving gender roles and status among other things), but now is neither the time nor the place to open that can of worms.

Gotta admit though, I was worried about this so called "male guilt complex" before I took my job as a Teacher. I teach Grade 7 & 8 (12-14 year olds), and having really no experience around children didn't help. But working with children has been a really positive experience for me, and has really helped me to realize how stupid this male guilt thing is.

Very interesting - thanks for that. We'll have to save that for another thread!

[MIJ-VI]

...And that's not the worst. In England in 2006, BBC News reported the story of a bricklayer who spotted a toddler at the side of the road. As he later testified at a hearing, he didn't stop to help for fear he'd be accused of trying to abduct her. You know: A man driving around with a little girl in his car? She ended up at a pond and drowned.

When it comes to child safety please do right no matter how 'wrong' it may look to others.

Cell phoning the police immediately and offering a complete account of what, where, and who would be prudent.

[Mark Latimour]

This thread made me think of Stanhope's bit on peadophelia in Sicko. Very appropriate.

[macaroni tony]

Originally Posted by Relic

To be absolutely honest - I'm a good dad who loves his kids and to be even remotely considered weirdo simply because I love interacting with kids, is not only infuriating but actually kind of hurts to be honest.

Kind of hurts? What are you, a chick?

As far as taking your own children (well nephews, for me) to the park and ending up chasing around random kids, I've been there myself. Speaking as a fatherless child, I'd imagine that kids who don't have one (or have one who is distant) will instantly gravitate toward a male figure who will pay attention to them. Sadly, there is a generation of men who felt like it was not their responsibility to raise their children. There is also a generation (mine) who hopefully can reverse that tide. I certainly have no problem with being a positive influence for the kids.

[Skitch it!]

Imo, I do really feel that the media has perpetuated this beyond scope, it's served them well to capitalise on the cases that have been brought to public attention, shock, horror, sells and influences, be suspicious of your neighbour, be suspicious of everyone, there's danger everywhere etc etc.

[macaroni tony]

Originally Posted by Skitch it!

Imo, I do really feel that the media has perpetuated this beyond scope, it's served them well to capitalise on the cases that have been brought to public attention, shock, horror, sells and influences, be suspicious of your neighbour, be suspicious of everyone, there's danger everywhere etc etc.

Yup. "To Catch A Predator" is horrible PR for guys

[Relic]

Originally Posted by macaroni tony

Kind of hurts? What are you, a chick?

yeah, ever since I lost my mancard I've been all sorts of whiny...the good news though is that my moobs have gotten perky and more than a little sassy..

As far as taking your own children (well nephews, for me) to the park and ending up chasing around random kids, I've been there myself. Speaking as a fatherless child, I'd imagine that kids who don't have one (or have one who is distant) will instantly gravitate toward a male figure who will pay attention to them. Sadly, there is a generation of men who felt like it was not their responsibility to raise their children. There is also a generation (mine) who hopefully can reverse that tide. I certainly have no problem with being a positive influence for the kids.

This is absolutely true. My dad was very old school, he worked 2 sometimes 3 jobs to support us, so while we were all provided for, I really missed the hell out of him for most of my childhood. It's one of the reasons why I am so attentive to my own kids.
Here's a great article about dads:

http://www.livescience.com/culture/0...erit-dads.html