Middle school/HS Cliques, groups, subcultures oh my...

Relic · #1 08-03-2011, 03:07 PM

So, I just don't get it, maybe I'm old.

Over the past year or so, I've been fighting a battle with my two older sons about NOT judging people. I thought I did a good job instilling this into their brains as they are very very open in terms of who they associate with. My house looks like a mini UN on weekends with their friends who are from all over - one kid's parents are from Palestine, another from Jamaica, then there's another who's born American from a one-parent house and is really kinda poor but they're always sharing with him and such which is cool. In fact, they're open and friendly with ANYONE who even slightly shares a common interest - music, airsoft, paintball, model rockets, etc. There's no race, creed, social standing, or anything that they seem to shun. Makes me really proud TBH.

Except....

Once they get to school.

I hear it all of the time: "I hate the gansta kids, they're always causing trouble", "I hate the jocks, they think they're so special" Then there's the absolute worst by far: " I frrrrriggen hate the preps!!"
What the heck... I'm left wondering if they like anyone at all in school..
For that matter, any of you young guys can tell me what the hell a "prep" is anyway while we're on the subject?

Mark Latimour · #2 08-03-2011, 03:08 PM

Man. Those emo parents are such a downer.

Relic · #3 08-03-2011, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Latimour

Man. Those emo parents are such a downer.

ahh shattup you're nothing but a **** stirring troll!

MatticusMania · #4 08-03-2011, 03:12 PM

C'mon Relic, you must be old! Yes, "preps" would be the same as "preppies" and dont tell me you didnt hate the preppie kids when you were in school!

Nothing out of the ordinary. You cant teach Human Nature out of human children. Be glad knowing that they arent judging people based on race or religion. Middle/High School is just that age where children start sorting themselves into groups. Different grous often show disdain towards other groups because they dont identify with each other. That is, until you remove the group setting, and they come to learn that so and so from the prep group is into model rockets, or that that goth kid also happens to be into paintball. Its all part of growing up and finding your place in society.

Relic · #5 08-03-2011, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MatticusMania

C'mon Relic, you must be old! Yes, "preps" would be the same as "preppies" and dont tell me you didnt hate the preppie kids when you were in school!

Nothing out of the ordinary. You cant teach Human Nature out of human children. Be glad knowing that they arent judging people based on race or religion. Middle/High School is just that age where children start sorting themselves into groups. Different grous often show disdain towards other groups because they dont identify with each other. That is, until you remove the group setting, and they come to learn that so and so from the prep group is into model rockets, or that that goth kid also happens to be into paintball. Its all part of growing up and finding your place in society.

Yeah I kind of surmised this as well. But I think what shocks me though is the actual level of disdain they show, when they're so laid back any other time. Kinda bugs me to be honest

**jmattbassplaya** · #6 08-03-2011, 03:16 PM

It's obvious your kids aren't biased against individuals; they're just biased against certain groups of friends and are just giving them a catch all name to make it easier for them to all know who they're referring to without listing out all their names. For example, them saying they hate jocks doesn't mean they hate all kids involved in sports. Rather, they just hate a certain group of guys involved with the school's football team, soccer team, etc... They don't hate Tim because he's a cool guy, but they hate some of the other guys on the football team like Bill, Jack, and Ryan (aka the jocks they hate).

Make sense?

NOT · #7 08-03-2011, 03:18 PM

That usually sticks during middle school..High school not so much.

I acted like that, and I regret it. I was lucky enogh to rid myself of that attitude two years ago in 8th grade.

My 8th grade home room was like "The Breakfast Club". All different types of kids.
It started out rough, but we all became friends.

All different types of kids. Jocks, Prepies, dorks, goths, etc

I was always seen as a goth kid, but I don't know why. I wore Levis, and concert shirts.
Hell i wore a Simon and Garfunkel shirt. I was a dork, I still am.

...Here's to you Mrs. Robinson...

EricF · #8 08-03-2011, 03:22 PM

What they see in how you and your wife approach the world, and the kind of behavior and attitudes you tolerate at home, is going to carry more weight as they grow up than a handfull of juvenille "I hate..." comments from their peers.

LiquidMidnight · #9 08-03-2011, 03:26 PM

Ahh, cliques...the most salient sociological aspect of high school. If Max Weber were alive today, he could have published 10 additional books on the subject.

I remember the prep term. It's funny when I hear it today, because anybody older than 17 who refers to somebody as a "prep" is a very sad individual. I'm sure the definition varies from locale to locale. When I was in high school, it generally meant somebody who came from a more privileged background (I would hestitate to say rich, as I didn't come from an aflluent area); generally wore typical clean-cut mall apparel (e.g., Abercrombie, American Eagle, etc.); while not a necessarily highly intelligent, generally did well academically; and were often part of the popular crowd. I went to a smaller school, and often, the lines between the jocks and preps were blurred.

It's funny. I hated high school and everyone older was telling me how I'd long for high school when I got older. I just turned 29 today, and looking back on my high school years, those people were wrong. I still think high school sucked. With that said, I think it would be fun to be a high school student again for just a week, but only if I could retain what I know now and who I am as a person now.

**colcifer** · #10 08-03-2011, 03:29 PM

I'm not a parent or child psychologist but I'll bet they grow out of it soon. They're probably just compensating for insecurity which every one of us had an abundance of at that age. My 2 cents is that you should keep an eye on it and hint at your disapproval but let it play out mostly on its own.

NOT · #11 08-03-2011, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiquidMidnight

Ahh, cliques...the most salient sociological aspect of high school. If Max Weber were alive today, he could have published 10 additional books on the subject.

I remember the prep term. It's funny when I hear it today, because anybody older than 17 who refers to somebody as a "prep" is a very sad individual. I'm sure the definition varies from locale to locale. When I was in high school, it generally meant somebody who came from a more privileged background (I would hestitate to say rich, as I didn't come from an aflluent area); generally wore typical clean-cut mall apparel (e.g., Abercrombie, American Eagle, etc.); while not a necessarily highly intelligent, generally did well academically; and were often part of the popular crowd. I went to a smaller school, and often, the lines between the jocks and preps were blurred.

It's funny. I hated high school and everyone older was telling me how I'd long for high school when I got older. I just turned 29 today, and looking back on my high school years, those people were wrong. I still think high school sucked. With that said, I think it would be fun to be a high school student again for just a week, but only if I could retain what I know now and who I am as a person now.

+1

sloasdaylight · #12 08-03-2011, 03:41 PM

Judging some one based on their skin color/ethnicity is a lot different than judging people on who they associate with.

Relic · #13 08-03-2011, 03:41 PM

Just to clarify my stance a bit guys - it's not that I'm unsure "what it is" in respect to this, no kids are "perfect", mine sure arent as I wasn't when I was a kid.
I'm just thrown by the duplicity of them being so accepting of other kids as individuals, yet then judging differently when it comes to a type of clique. It kinda puzzles me.

Lemme throw this tidbit out there - you will never hear them state something disparaging against a racial or ethnic group, a religious group, etc. It's just something that doesn't even seem to cross their minds. Their selection of friends shows no real preference other then common interest. All cool.
But you would think that with that mindset, they'd be a little less judgmental when it comes to school cliques? I mean how can you not judge someone in one respect, but then go ahead and decide you hate another group in a smaller respect? Interesting psychology..

In the grand scheme of things it's really not a big deal, just makes me wonder what the heck's behind this.

MatticusMania · #14 08-03-2011, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relic

In the grand scheme of things it's really not a big deal, just makes me wonder what the heck's behind this.

Social pressure. I wouldnt be surprised if the kids your children hang out with feel the same was that yours do in regards to any given clique.

Funky Ghost · #15 08-03-2011, 04:07 PM

Social skills are hard.

We all start with easy to digest concepts ( like cliques ) because they are immediately satisfying. When you say something about a person or group or thing, and it gets instant approval, you get a feeling of acceptance. It doesn't make kids bad. It's all they are able to interpret at that young age because their experiences are so narrow. Some kids, the enlightened few, don't go through that step, but most do. I wouldn't worry too much unless they are actively harassing someone.

a quick edit: I wouldn't worry about them not following what you say either. As young adults they need to test the truth of what you say. They remember, but until it's been used in practice, it's just a theory

Young adults push the needle too far, as a way of wresting control of their lives from the parents. Trying on the big boy boots, so to speak. This too, is normal. It's tough! But it's normal.

RosieB · #16 08-03-2011, 04:35 PM

Good thread, Relic. My younger two are just headed to high school and firmly entrenched in middle school, and I see exactly the same thing. Ethnicity, religion, even family situations, seem to be non-existent to them as a basis for judgement, yet when it comes to cliques and social groups they are viscous. Not at home talking to me, but what I overhear of conversations with their friends. Mainly with my daughter. It concerns me and I really don't understand it because I don't remember being that way myself. And my oldest is a bit of a loner so I didn't really deal with much of this with him. The responses here have been helpful. And it's good to know (I think-maybe not?) that it's not just here and it's not just us. Thanks.

Oh, and yes, you must be old! :-)

Relic · #17 08-03-2011, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RosieB

Good thread, Relic. My younger two are just headed to high school and firmly entrenched in middle school, and I see exactly the same thing. Ethnicity, religion, even family situations, seem to be non-existent to them as a basis for judgement, yet when it comes to cliques and social groups they are viscous. Not at home talking to me, but what I overhear of conversations with their friends. Mainly with my daughter. It concerns me and I really don't understand it because I don't remember being that way myself. And my oldest is a bit of a loner so I didn't really deal with much of this with him. The responses here have been helpful. And it's good to know (I think-maybe not?) that it's not just here and it's not just us. Thanks.

Oh, and yes, you must be old! :-)

Wow, I'm really happy to hear that it's not just me! (that's old

)
No, for real though, I'm honestly sort of relieved to hear that yours are doing the same. It's bizarre because I don't ever remember being that way myself back in the day. Bizarre stuff.

MatticusMania · #18 08-03-2011, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relic

Wow, I'm really happy to hear that it's not just me! (that's old

)
No, for real though, I'm honestly sort of relieved to hear that yours are doing the same. It's bizarre because I don't ever remember being that way myself back in the day. Bizarre stuff.

I can atest that when I was in Middle School/High School there was certainly a clique-ish atmosphere. And that was from 95-02. Perhaps it has developed more as schools have become more crowded?

EricF · #19 08-03-2011, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relic

Wow, I'm really happy to hear that it's not just me! (that's old

)
No, for real though, I'm honestly sort of relieved to hear that yours are doing the same. It's bizarre because I don't ever remember being that way myself back in the day. Bizarre stuff.

Maybe I've just burned a few less brain cells than you (not likely), but I remember some of the clique-hating comments from friends of mine in high school and middle school. What stuck with me as an adult, and as I became parent, were the non-prejudicial and open-minded attitudes of my parents.

Skitch it! · #20 08-03-2011, 05:31 PM

I always felt it was a form of inherent tribalism at that kind of age, not in particular regard to race, ethnicity, religion etc. but far more to do with identity.

I'd agree with the last sentence of this definition from Wiki:

The distinction between these two definitions for tribalism is an important one because, while tribal society no longer strictly exists in the western world, tribalism, by this second definition, is arguably undiminished. People have postulated that the human brain is hard-wired towards tribalism due to its evolutionary advantages.

But not the whole definition in the instance of your OP.