NEED ADVICE - HAVE JOB OFFER - NEGOTIATE OFFERED SALARY?

[pablomigraine]

Okay any advice would be greatly appreciated:

I was offered a job with a local, mid-size, very successful Federal Credit union as a Credit Risk Associate level 2. I will be making collection calls to all defaulted account, managing and enforcing payment agreements, but my position will have special focus on real estate secured defaulted debt... handling foreclosures from start to finish and everything associated. I am licensed in the state of NY in Real Estate, and have over 7 years experience dealing with all levels of foreclosure.

Company benefits and everything are generous..... formal written offer states starting salary at $41,000.00. This seems on the low range of what this type of job usually pays in NY. According to Indeed.com avg for this job is $51k... according to NYJOBS the avg is $78k.... so who knows...

In a general sense, is it wise to negotiate the first offer? How much is wise? 10%? 20%?

Any chance of them rescinding the original offer?

Any advice would be awesome!!!!!!!

[i_got_a_mohawk]

They might be lowballing, don't know how bad it currently is in the US/NY, but many companies over here could get away with that because the competition is pretty fierce and even a lower than usual salary will be sought after.

But as said, no experience of your area or that field (so a pretty useless comment on my behalf)

[pablomigraine]

Originally Posted by i_got_a_mohawk

They might be lowballing, don't know how bad it currently is in the US/NY, but many companies over here could get away with that because the competition is pretty fierce and even a lower than usual salary will be sought after.

But as said, no experience of your area or that field (so a pretty useless comment on my behalf)

Currently in New York, there are 8 perspective candidates for ever available job in the financial sector.

With all humility, finding one with my experience and skill set will not be easy for this employer...

[Bassguy61]

A lot of what you are asking about is situational... Nothing unwise about negotiating the offer. Things to think about:

1) First, I'd ask them what the salary range or band is for the position. You have 7 year's experieince, I would be resonable to expect an offer at more than the position minimum.

2) When you look at the salary sites, keep in mind much of the variance will have to do with cost of living in your specific area and other details.

I guess what I would say is, looking at the whole package, what do you need for the offer to be to meet what your obligations/desires. Once you know that, then you can begin to bargin around that figure. Could they pull the offer? Possible, but not likely. But that's where realism has to come in. If the offer is $41,000 and the top for that position is $55,000, but your minimum need is $65,000, it's may be that they can't come close and it will come to this is the offer, take it or not.

[bongomania]

My fiance had the same dilemma quite recently. After a very long job search, she was finally offered a position; but their salary offer was about 17% lower than her previous salary, and her previous salary was about average for the level of position she's at. I warned her not to negotiate, out of fear that they'd rescind the offer (we needed the employment badly). She decided to negotiate anyway, and asked for something closer to her old salary level. They thought about it for a few days, and came back with "no--you can have the job for the amount we offered, end of story". She took it (and I'm glad she did).

So at least in that one case, they did not rescind the offer, but also no benefit was obtained.

[PSPookie]

There should certainly be some wiggle room there. Also, keep in mind that you can ask for non-monetary items as well . . . extra vacation time etc.

[rokkitt]

hmmmm that is a tough one

you have to think of a BATNA

best alternative to a negotiated agreement


so, if you have no alternative, (sit at home with no job) you have no negotiating power.


but, you can ask....can they rescind? yes, that is a chance.

however, once employed, you can look for another job while employed...you will have more leverage.

and, pm me. I do NYC real estate, and I am licensed as well....dont know if I can help, but you never know

allen
aka

rokkitt

[Jared Lash]

It's a question of leverage. Do you really think they will have trouble finding someone of your experience and skill level if you pass on the job?

And would you really be willing to pass on the job? That's the key. It determines whether or not you can draw a line in the sand or if you're just trying to finesse some extra dollars when you'll definitely be taking the job.

If you're really willing to walk away then find the number that would be acceptable and present them with it. If you aren't willing to walk away then I'd frame your response more in terms of ability for advancement rather than initial salary.

FWIW, the only time I've ever argued salary is when I knew for a fact that I had other offers lined up. Otherwise you may find yourself in a game of chicken where you have a lot more to lose than they do. Just my 2 cents.

[LilRay]

They may be "fishing" to see if you know the "going" salary in your area. I've watched my Pop interview for jobs and the interviewer first offers X amount, my Pop then responds an average salary here is X amount, but I've been doing this for 30+ years, I'll work for the avg salary to start and a pay increase guarantee in a week, once I've proven (to you) my knowledge of the field. I've got enough experience, I don't need to "practice".

It's all about confidence You go in with any sort of hesitation, and you might not get the most you can.

God Bless, Ray

[pacojas]

just take the job if you really need to and give them 41k worth in performance. when they ask you to step it up,... you ask them to step up the cash to your experience level. that's what's up!!!

[LarryO]

Are you currently unemployed are bill collectors calling you? Are you calling yourself?

[Jim Nazium]

Generally, my attitude has been not to negotiate 'just to see if I can get more' because I think it can cause bad feelings. I'd rather take the job, work my azz off, and six months later ask for a raise based on my demonstrated performance.

However, if I thought the offer was really out of line, based on the level of the position and my skills / experience, I'd tell them that (politely) and ask for what I thought was a fair salary.

Congratulations, BTW, and good luck to you.

[LiquidMidnight]

Originally Posted by rokkitt

hmmmm that is a tough one

you have to think of a BATNA

best alternative to a negotiated agreement

+1

Never go into any negotiation without a BATNA. And if possible, know their BATNA as well. If their BATNA is not really good, they would be more willing to settle closer to your interests. If they have a good BATNA, you could risk stalling at impasse and they moving on to the next person. Knowing their BATNA may be difficult in this situation, because they probably won't divulge anything about the other applicants they had considered.

With that said, I agree with the poster who said sometimes it's better to take a job and then justify a raise with your performance. Also, there is a labor surplus right now, so it's an employer's market in regard to selection. Keep that in mind. Also, as far as the averages, remember that they are just that: averages. There are going to be salaries both above and below the mean, and there are probably variables, such as specific market and employees' job experience, education, etc. that influence where the individual salaries in the computed data set fall. Without knowing standard deviations, it's difficult to say how much variance is between the different salaries.

[playinpearls]

maybe a 90 day probabtion would work? then a better pay rate...

i aggree with the batna. If you have a batna, then you can negotiate better.

Also, if the employer has already interviewed you more than once you have a higher position too. Employers hate interviewing. The fact that they have put time into you and offered you a position shows they want you and probably dont want to interview another 50 people to find another good one. they have already invested money in you. to lose you now would hurt them more than not having anyone at all... a tip from my econ professor...

[pablomigraine]

To answer as many points as I can:

My annual income in 2007 - 2008 was more than triple what this job pays. My income for 2009 was less than half what this job pays. If you haven't guessed I'm a real estate professional

This company WILL NOT find another perspective candidate with my level of experience and expertise in regards to certain portions of the job responsibilities (roughly 40% of total responsibilities), and I will be relieving the Chief Operations Officer of handling those responsibilities.... the same COO who admitted in our meeting that she was not equipped to handle them such as they are.... and anticipate the problem getting dramatically worse in 2010 - 2011.

I do have bill collectors calling me, and I AM working roughly double the hours I would be with this job, and not making regular pay.... just the occasional score.

[Geddyfleaharris]

Originally Posted by LiquidMidnight

+1

With that said, I agree with the poster who said sometimes it's better to take a job and then justify a raise with your performance. Also, there is a labor surplus right now, so it's an employer's market in regard to selection. Keep that in mind.

^^^ Agree.

I am a business owner and do lot of our company's hiring. Our part of Canada has not been as drastically effected by the recession as other parts of North America but I have contacts across Canada and the U.S. and do know that things are bad. IMO you are in a weak negotiating position through no fault of your own.

If you need the job but think it is below what you are worth still accept it. Be up front though and tell them that you think the salary is a bit low for your level of experience. Don't be insulting. Ask them where the salary can go in 6 months or a year. Most businesses have a pretty good idea of what they have to pay someone in a given market or economy. They didn't set the salary at $41,000.00 by accident. Obviously I have no real handle on the situation but I doubt the $41,000.00 is a lowball offer just to you. They probably believe that they can get someone to fill the position for that salary. Don't forget too that benefits are figured as part of any compensation package and you have indicated that these are generous. Not every company has benefits.

Unless you are supremely confident in finding a better paying job or really have a feeling that you can squeeze more out of them then just go to work and prove to them that you are worth more. Unfortunetly market conditions are setting your salary and not your level of experience.

Personally I would far rather have someone come to work and prove to me that they are worth more than what I am paying them than have them try for more money right off the bat. Remember an employer really doesn't know how an employee is going to perform until they are actually working; no matter what a resume says.

[Geddyfleaharris]

Originally Posted by pablomigraine

To answer as many points as I can:

My annual income in 2007 - 2008 was more than triple what this job pays. My income for 2009 was less than half what this job pays. If you haven't guessed I'm a real estate professional

That sucks man.

Can you draw a direct corelation between what you did a couple of years ago and what this job is in terms of job description?

If you can't your past salary and work will have no bearing on this position. I am not trying to be a smart ass....just saying how a company might view your past job experience.

i.e. this is an extreme example but if a doctor had to take a job as a taxi driver the taxi company doesn't care how much the doctor made in his past life. They are only going to pay what the going rate is.

Please take my comments in the spirit they are intended and not as an insult to your past work experience.

[i_got_a_mohawk]

There is about 8 candidates per job right now. Do you think your 7 years experience is going to be better than 87.5% of the people in your sector?

Is the job you are applying for the complete bottom line? Or was X-years of experience required?

I'd be tempted to take the job, take the lower than you are used to money and make yourself a valuable asset to them.

Trying to negotiate a better salary in these times might just be enough to put them off you, they could easily turn around and say "well, we have 7 other people in line who could cover this job in a satisfactory manner".

Not meaning to sound dickish, just the way I see it. Hard times for everyone :-\

[UncleFluffy]

It's a tricky market out there - I'm making half of what I was in 2007, but am grateful to be still able to pay the rent.

Best suggestion I can make is something like playinpearl's - tell them that their offer is lower than you think you're worth but you're willing to do 3 months at that rate with a review to see if you're worth $10k more after that. If they go for that, save every penny you can and look around for a better deal to improve your BATNA. Once the review comes around, you should be in a better negotiating position because they're not going to want to go through the hassle of finding another candidate and rehiring.

[pablomigraine]

Originally Posted by Geddyfleaharris

^^^ Agree.

I am a business owner and do lot of our company's hiring. Our part of Canada has not been as drastically effected by the recession as other parts of North America but I have contacts across Canada and the U.S. and do know that things are bad. IMO you are in a weak negotiating position through no fault of your own.

If you need the job but think it is below what you are worth still accept it. Be up front though and tell them that you think the salary is a bit low for your level of experience. Don't be insulting. Ask them where the salary can go in 6 months or a year. Most businesses have a pretty good idea of what they have to pay someone in a given market or economy. They didn't set the salary at $41,000.00 by accident. Obviously I have no real handle on the situation but I doubt the $41,000.00 is a lowball offer just to you. They probably believe that they can get someone to fill the position for that salary. Don't forget too that benefits are figured as part of any compensation package and you have indicated that these are generous. Not every company has benefits.

Unless you are supremely confident in finding a better paying job or really have a feeling that you can squeeze more out of them then just go to work and prove to them that you are worth more. Unfortunetly market conditions are setting your salary and not your level of experience.

Personally I would far rather have someone come to work and prove to me that they are worth more than what I am paying them than have them try for more money right off the bat. Remember an employer really doesn't know how an employee is going to perform until they are actually working; no matter what a resume says.

Agree.... based on everything I am hearing.... I am going to accept pending written agreement to a 6 month review, and some further discussion of the company taking up the slack in regards to dues associated with several licenses I hold in New York which the company may wish me to make use of as a course of business.

Originally Posted by Geddyfleaharris

That sucks man.

Can you draw a direct corelation between what you did a couple of years ago and what this job is in terms of job description?

If you can't your past salary and work will have no bearing on this position. I am not trying to be a smart ass....just saying how a company might view your past job experience.

i.e. this is an extreme example but if a doctor had to take a job as a taxi driver the taxi company doesn't care how much the doctor made in his past life. They are only going to pay what the going rate is.

Please take my comments in the spirit they are intended and not as an insult to your past work experience.

No no this is quite accurate. I am what is considered to be an expert in a very specialized, highly regulated and extremely complex field of debt securitization. There are many other experts around, but very few if any who have the experience and success I can cite in regards to representing each of the up to 11 different parties that are often involved in each associated transaction / process.

In a stable market, I do quite well, in a poor market, I do quite poorly and have to expend a maximum of effort to "do" at all....

In the US, and in NY especially.... it has basically become illegal to profit from a real estate transaction. Insofar as residential real estate is concerned (1-4 units).... current Federal & State Legislation coupled with new banking guidelines makes the purchase AND sale of real estate almost impossible for anyone OTHER THAN first time home-buyers, or people who are not making a profit of any kind from the sale of real estate. This goes double for anyone seeking financing of any kind. For example.... If you are buying a home foreclosed by Fannie Mae.... you are prohibited from seeking financing on the property unless you are both a first time homebuyer AND getting your financing through Fannie Mae / FHA. This is both discriminatory and COMPLETELY ILLEGAL but what are you gonna do? Sue the FHA? Trouble is... most of these Fannie Mae foreclosures are in such bad shape that they do not constitute acceptable collateral per FHA mortgage guidelines and they wont lend you a mortgage.... therefore only one in 20 Fannie Mae foreclosures are able to be bought by anyone. Additionally, if you have the scratch to buy the home with cash, you are prohibited from securing financing on the home in excess of the purchase price, and you may not sell the property for more than what you paid for it for an extended period of time. (meaning even if you buy the house for $30K cash, spend $30K cash rehabbing it, have $5k in other expenses and end up with a house worth $100k, you may not refinance the house or sell it for more than your original purchase price of $30k to anyone by any means.) The result is that average marketing time for Non-Fannie Mae foreclosures is 1-3 months.... Avg marketing time for FM foreclosures is 12-18 months with less than 20% of available inventory actually selling at all.... at any price... to anyone!

Wow..... was I raving? Please excuse my antiquated ideals and pointless devotion to the bygone era of Capitalism and fair market.... long story short.... my area of expertise (like most private industry it seems) is being legislated / regulated right out of existence as a profitable venture. I may however, do the same thing for federal institutions. I firmly believe that, for better or worse, almost all private industry in this county will be wholly or at least partially Federal within the next 10 years. So.... if we're headed to a communist economy with everyone working for, and receiving everything from, a Federal entity... why not get on the wagon early?