Need auto advice - Transmission drama

[Marley's Ghost]

I'm driving a 2003 Honda Odyssey with 175K miles. Had the transmission replaced about 5 years ago with a rebuilt at 100k miles.

Wednesday evening I started to notice what seemed to be some trans slipping. It only happened twice and then seemed ok. I called someone I know who is the service manager for a shop very close to home (he's also a fellow bass player). He offered for me to bring it in yesterday morning to take a look.

During the 1-2 mile drive to the shop, I noticed no issues at all. He test drove it later and also didnt notice any issues. So we agreed to do a trans flush and regular service.

Late in the afternoon one of the shop guys brought it back to my house to get me, then we took it back to shop to drop it off and pay the bill. When we are almost there the trans started slipping much worse than before.

So back at the shop they changed the trans fluid again and took a longer test drive. There was no doubt at this point the trans has issues.

The van is in the shop now. They are going to look at it again this morning, but the prognosis is not good. So I have 2 decisions to make:

1) If they bill me for the service, should I fight them? I could argue they didnt do an adequate test before they flushed the trans.

2) Is it worth 2k to replace the trans? The engine is still in excellent condition, and new(ish) vans and SUV's are not cheap. It's my band's primary equipment hauler, and we are already paying $350/m for my wife's car payment.

Other than the trans replacement 5 years ago, there have been no major repairs since I bought it new in 2003.

[iamlowsound]

I would repair, unless you can get something better for the same price as the repair.

lowsound

[will33]

It's likely electroncally controlled via the engine computer. Coukd be some gremlins there telling it to shift at wrong times or getting "stuck" between gears.

Barring that, slipping usually means the clutches inside are wearing out or there is a problem with the valve body that's not allowing it to stay solidly in gear. Though, mechanically, a rebuilt shouod last a good deal longer than 75k.

The biggest enemy of an automatic transmission is heat. If you live in a hot climate or do a lot of load hauling, adding an addition oil cooler to it can be a worthwhile investment although, that's something that would've been done early in it's life, not so much now.


At 175k, it might be at the point where for more expensive parts (like transmissions), you have a friend who's handy replace it with one from a junkyard/wrecked vehicle rather than drop 2k at a service center. You can compensate the friend well, still save a lot of money, and fet some more miles out of your car.

[Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by Marley's Ghost

1) If they bill me for the service, should I fight them? I could argue they didnt do an adequate test before they flushed the trans.

2) Is it worth 2k to replace the trans? The engine is still in excellent condition, and new(ish) vans and SUV's are not cheap. It's my band's primary equipment hauler, and we are already paying $350/m for my wife's car payment.

Other than the trans replacement 5 years ago, there have been no major repairs since I bought it new in 2003.

1) Of course not. Flushing did not damage anything, the tranny was already worn. Life happens.

2) If the van is good otherwise, I say yes. Spend the money and drive it. MUCH cheaper than replacing the vehicle.

BTW - based on advice from a friend who runs a transmission shop, I have automatic transmissions in our family vehicles power flushed every 30K miles. Costs a bit under $200 and since I started doing that I've never had a problem with one. My daughter's 1991 Camaro has 160K miles and the transmission is original and works great.

[Thor]

The power flush tip is interesting.

A guy here at work had his 3 year old Honda Accord tranny fail at 60k. Honda's are usually considered very well built cars, but I am beginning to think the power trains are suspect.

I had nightmares with an old Econoline E-150. I think it had the C4 tranny in it that was also used for a Mustang. Way too light duty for a truck or work van.

The next 5 cars were sticks.

Mazda RX7 84 - needed the Rotary seals at 120k, at 222k again but it was rusting away so I sold it to a guy to restore and race it.

Saab 93 9000, 175k, never needed a clutch.

Saab 97 900 Conv. Blew a clutch throw out bearing at 100k, 10 years later. I drive it today, runs like a sewing machine at 15lk, and 15 years.

Volvo 1998 T-5 S70 - 256k no clutch ever needed, but in the end old age and necessary repairs were going to exceed replacement costs.

Replaced by a VW TDI 6 speed Sportwagen. This car gets around 46 mpg on the hiway. Great car. Diesel is close to 4 bucks a gallon, with that kind of mileage, to go the same mileage at gas costs translates to a 2.60 fuel cost when compared to my old Saab. No diesel fumes, great torque and very acceptable acceleration.

Slightly OT, but I hear Mazda is coming out with a new clean diesel technology motor this year, I am curious to see how and where they will make that available in their lines, and if Ford will adopt the option as well.

I have always thought that the smaller pickup truck lines would be interesting with diesel and stick options, especially in 4WD platforms.

[Eric Perry]

I own an Acura, which basically is a Honda. From all I've read, trans flushes for these cars are a *very* bad idea. I've done a 3x3 tranny fluid change myself (drain/refill three quarts, three separate times), just for preventative maintenance. From all I've read, that seems to be the recommended means of changing tranny fluid.

[Mike N]

Right off the bat the Odyssey is known to have a weak trans. With that being said your rebuilt unit was going to fail anyways. I personally wouldn't have waited until I had 75K to do a service, 30K is more like it.

Trying to fight it is pointless. I've been in the business for 30 years and I can tell you that 99.9% of the time when someone comes in for a tranny service, coolant flush, alignment etc.... it's because they're having a problem, not for maintenance reasons. The only leg you may have to stand on is if they used the wrong fluid. Imports can be pretty finicky on correct fluids, and despite whatever the major oil makers will claim the one-fluid-fits-all crap just doesn't cut it in my book. Most Honda's call for ATF-Z1.

[Marley's Ghost]

Thanks guys. I'm still waiting to hear back from them. They did give me a loaner, so we will see what happens.

I'm leaning towards repairing it right now. It's the LX model with leather heated seats, which fit like a fine glove.

[dannylectro]

Originally Posted by Mike N

Right off the bat the Odyssey is known to have a weak trans.

+1

And hauling around band gear will not help matters at all, especially if you do it frequently. This is why plumbers and electricians, etc. usually get super-duty vans (Ford E-350, etc.) It's not really the extra box size that matters, it's the heavy duty engine, transmission and drive train needed to haul around the weight.

[two fingers]

If you haul all the gear in a tiny van like that, maybe your band could kick in some on the repairs? Just sayin.

I can't even imagine hauling gear in a Honda. Wow. I'm not berating you by any means. Just trying to wrap my head around the concept.

[Marley's Ghost]

The Odyssey is actually pretty beefy for a minivan. It has a 3.6L V6 with 245 HP. And the engine still runs great. The trans is a weak spot on these vehicles.

[two fingers]

Am I correct in guessing that all newer cars have dedicated parts? In other words, you can't "upgrade" transmissions on those thing, can you? Like old Chevy 350s you could put any number of transmissions on it as long as the bolt pattern worked (and I know I am way over simplifying that). Are there heavier and lighter transmissions that fit on that van? Might be worth it if there are.

[Eric Perry]

Originally Posted by Mike N

...Most Honda's call for ATF-Z1.

Honda actually recently released a new ATF. DW-1. It's supposedly superior to the Z1, and is backward compatible. I only know that because of my recent 3x3.

[Marley's Ghost]

I just got a call from the shop. The trans is gone. And the cheapest one they can find out there right now is $3,000.

[two fingers]

Here ya' go. Couple of options in your "neighborhood".
http://delaware.craigslist.org/pts/3523034936.html

This guy in Philly will do it for $1200
http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/pts/3544284277.html

http://baltimore.craigslist.org/pts/3474821639.html

Here's a used one installed in Baltimore for only $700
http://baltimore.craigslist.org/pts/3466216125.html

[Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by two fingers

Am I correct in guessing that all newer cars have dedicated parts? In other words, you can't "upgrade" transmissions on those thing, can you? Like old Chevy 350s you could put any number of transmissions on it as long as the bolt pattern worked (and I know I am way over simplifying that). Are there heavier and lighter transmissions that fit on that van? Might be worth it if there are.

Someone who really knows automatic transmissions used to be able to pull some interesting tricks with inserting additional discs and friction material into an auto, but I've heard of that being done mainly in US brand transmissions in older cars. It's kind of a hot-rod specialty. I doubt any shop would do it to a customer's tranny because of the potential for comebacks.

Both I and my wife prefer to drive manual transmissions, but as I said earlier, power flushing every 30K has been VERY good for the automatics we've had in the family.

I flat do not believe that flushing the automatic transmission in any brand of vehicle is bad for it. Oil wears out and it needs to be replaced.

[guroove]

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

I flat do not believe that flushing the automatic transmission in any brand of vehicle is bad for it. Oil wears out and it needs to be replaced.

There is machine flushing and there is draining the trans and adding fluid. I have always done drain & fill changes on my car. I do it once a year, and I have 120,000 trouble free miles on my transmission. This is on a modified turbo car that makes over 305 hp to the wheels.

I have seen flushing machines do damage to transmissions, so I never recommend it. It is usually due to contamination with incompatible / incorrect fluids.

[Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by guroove

I have seen flushing machines do damage to transmissions, so I never recommend it. It is usually due to contamination with incompatible / incorrect fluids.

THAT is entirely possible, if the fluids are incompatible. Good point.

[Mike N]

Originally Posted by Marley's Ghost

I just got a call from the shop. The trans is gone. And the cheapest one they can find out there right now is $3,000.

If you were closer to me I'd recommend a shop that could rebuild yours for $1400 and guarantee it. I've already sent him a few Odyssey vans just like yours.

[Mike N]

Originally Posted by guroove

I have seen flushing machines do damage to transmissions, so I never recommend it. It is usually due to contamination with incompatible / incorrect fluids.

The incorrect fluid part I'll go along with and I'll add that any of those additives that claim to remove deposits, clean internal parts, flush agents etc are pretty much crap. I personally do not and will not use them.

The machine itself I won't go along with. The term "flush" is often confused with forcing something through the system, sort of like when we used to use a garden hose to flush a nasty cooling system. Really it should be considered a "fluid exchange" instead. The machines usually have some sort of weak pump in them but pretty much rely on the transmission pump (or water pump) to move the fluid in and out of the transmission or engine. You disconnect one of the cooler lines (or radiator hose) and install the machine fittings. As the old fluid is pushed out the weak pump pushes the new fluid in. There's really no forcing the fluid in so no damage is being done by the machine.