Neo-Nazi Crime in Germany

[Dr. Cheese]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/14/wo...ted=1&src=recg

It's sad to see this sort of thing rearing its head again.

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Sadly far-right extremism rises in times of recession (granted, these have been going on longer than the current recession).

We've sadly seen a rise in that kinda activity in the UK too with the EDL ('English Defense League'), and their various spin-off factions.

[kserg]

It never left.

You can stop people from doing what they are doing by force, but you can't stop people from being ignorant if they don't want to change.

[Smokin' Toaster]

I agree 100%. Those responsible should be punished.

I was somewhat dismayed to find this article in response calling for the banning of right wing parties:

Right-wing terrorism triggers new calls for ban on far-right parties | Germany | Deutsche Welle | 14.11.2011

Not because I support them, I most certainly do not. The problem is, you encounter the age old dilemma of who decides what gets banned. And if the right wing party gets banned today, who's to stop the next party from getting banned tomorrow. Ironically, the original Nazis were big fans of banning opposing parties. I hope modern day Germans do not use a favorite tool of the Nazis to try to right this wrong.

Punishing those guilty of crimes is always a good idea. Preventing such deeds through education to erase the ignorance of those who commit them is always a good idea. EDIT: Deterrence resulting from sure and swift, and severe punishment of the guilty is a good idea. Banning books, political parties, and free speech, however distasteful, ... not such a good idea.

Viel glück haben, Deutschland... I hope you can stop the violence and quell the hate... again.

[kserg]

Originally Posted by Smokin' Toaster

I agree 100%. Those responsible should be punished.

I was somewhat dismayed to find this article in response calling for the banning of right wing parties:

Right-wing terrorism triggers new calls for ban on far-right parties | Germany | Deutsche Welle | 14.11.2011

Not because I support them, I most certainly do not. The problem is, you encounter the age old dilemma of who decides what gets banned. And if the right wing party gets banned today, who's to stop the next party from getting banned tomorrow. Ironically, the original Nazis were big fans of banning opposing parties. I hope modern day Germans do not use a favorite tool of the Nazis to try to right this wrong.

Punishing those guilty of crimes is always a good idea. Preventing such deeds through education to erase the ignorance of those who commit them is always a good idea. Banning books, political parties, and free speech, however distasteful, ... not such a good idea.

Viel glück haben, Deutschland... I hope you can stop the violence and quell the hate... again.

I like how people think by "banning something, you stop it"

LETS BAN CRIME!!! That will stop them!

[Dr. Cheese]

Originally Posted by Smokin' Toaster

I agree 100%. Those responsible should be punished.

I was somewhat dismayed to find this article in response calling for the banning of right wing parties:

Right-wing terrorism triggers new calls for ban on far-right parties | Germany | Deutsche Welle | 14.11.2011

Not because I support them, I most certainly do not. The problem is, you encounter the age old dilemma of who decides what gets banned. And if the right wing party gets banned today, who's to stop the next party from getting banned tomorrow. Ironically, the original Nazis were big fans of banning opposing parties. I hope modern day Germans do not use a favorite tool of the Nazis to try to right this wrong.

Punishing those guilty of crimes is always a good idea. Preventing such deeds through education to erase the ignorance of those who commit them is always a good idea. Banning books, political parties, and free speech, however distasteful, ... not such a good idea.

Viel glück haben, Deutschland... I hope you can stop the violence and quell the hate... again.

Banning parties or symbols has been part of the political landscape of Germany since the post war period. The USA is an exception in that symbols like the Confederate Flag stayed legal.

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

Banning parties or symbols has been part of the political landscape of Germany since the post war period. The USA is an exception in that symbols like the Confederate Flag stayed legal.

+1

Different cultures and all that

[etoncrow]

Originally Posted by kserg

It never left...

It never left and it probably never will. De-humanizing or belittling others to raise one's own feeling of self-worth seems to be a base part of human nature I am afraid.

[smeet]

Originally Posted by kserg

It never left.

You can stop people from doing what they are doing by force, but you can't stop people from being ignorant if they don't want to change.

Absolutely.

My drummer is Jewish, but looks like a skinhead. He has toured in Germany and on several occasions was approached by neo-nazi types who told him how they hated Jews and wouldn't go to the US because of that. Needless to say, he didn't let them know he was Jewish.

There are always people like that around. Let's hope that someday that won't be true any more, but thus far history does not make me optimistic.

[kserg]

Originally Posted by smeet

Absolutely.

My drummer is Jewish, but looks like a skinhead. He has toured in Germany and on several occasions was approached by neo-nazi types who told him how they hated Jews and wouldn't go to the US because of that. Needless to say, he didn't let them know he was Jewish.

Haha, i had someone tell me what they thought about the Jews... I've listen to them carefully... Then told them i was Jewish... They got mad, so i called them a "....... Jew"

I am along lines of your drummer as far as ethnicity and looks, I have advantage of being 6'3" 330lb.

[Smokin' Toaster]

I'm aware of the banning of symbols pertaining to the nazis. I found it interesting that you can go into a hobby store in Germany and get a model kit of a Messerschmitt or Focke Wulf WWII airplane, and the tail has a diamond of the same dimensions where a swastika would be. I can understand their sensitivity, but I wondered if building a model kit with historically correct markings created new nazis.

And I detect a "too bad the US is not so enlightened (if they were they could ban undesirable things too)" attitude in the responses in this thread. As most everyone who has posted seems to indicate, it does no good to ban books, symbols, or political parties if wiping out the hate is your goal. So if the US had banned the confederate flag; we'd be in the same boat we are today hate wise, and it would be a little easier for anyone who could gather enough power to ban symbols, books, or parties of their opposition. Wouldn't the extremists like that?

On second thought, banning these things might be more like telling a teenager that you don't like his/her choice of boyfriend/girlfriend. Because it's forbidden, it's all the more attractive.

Sure, everyone wants to feel good and think they stomped out evil. But if the end result is opening the door and encouraging more evil, you might just want to think about possible unintended results before you stomp.

EDIT: I have unintentionally hijacked the thread. I apologize. I will have good thoughts and prayers for the victims, and hope that justice is done to those responsible. And also pray that the mentality that causes these crimes can be changed through education and other means.

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Originally Posted by Smokin' Toaster

And I detect a "too bad the US is not so enlightened (if they were they could ban undesirable things too)" attitude in the responses in this thread.

Saying it's a different culture isn't saying either is better bud

[LiquidMidnight]

Originally Posted by kserg

LETS BAN CRIME!!! That will stop them!

[LiquidMidnight]

Originally Posted by Smokin' Toaster

I'm aware of the banning of symbols pertaining to the nazis. I found it interesting that you can go into a hobby store in Germany and get a model kit of a Messerschmitt or Focke Wulf WWII airplane, and the tail has a diamond of the same dimensions where a swastika would be. I can understand their sensitivity, but I wondered if building a model kit with historically correct markings created new nazis.

The swastika is so engrained in Europe's history as something with negative connotations. For a better understanding of those implications, check out this sociological paradigm: Symbolic interactionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Granted, I'm not a fan of banning things because they make people feel uncomfortable - I wasn't a fan of radio stations banning songs with references to airplanes right after 9/11 happened - but I do understand, sociologically-speaking, the reasoning behind banning the swastika in Europe.

[smeet]

Originally Posted by kserg

Haha, i had someone tell me what they thought about the Jews... I've listen to them carefully... Then told them i was Jewish... They got mad, so i called them a "....... Jew"

I am along lines of your drummer as far as ethnicity and looks, I have advantage of being 6'3" 330lb.

Ha!

My drummer is just over 5' and the neo nazi guys were always big, drunk and in groups. A bit intimidating.

People suck. And yet, sometimes... They kinda almost don't suck.

[MatticusMania]

Originally Posted by i_got_a_mohawk

Sadly far-right extremism rises in times of recession

Hmm, I wonder why that may be...


everyone needs a scapegoat.

[fhm555]

Originally Posted by MatticusMania

Hmm, I wonder why that may be...


everyone needs a scapegoat.

And don't forget the fear...

Think little dog behind a big fence barking it's head off.

Or better, think the massive lack of people at military recruiting stations in America on 9/12, followed in a few days by a run on American flags and patriotic flavored bunting.

As for banning images, I don't buy the claimed value of it. People predisposed to hate will do so no matter what is allowed or not allowed. If they can't get a professionally rendered example of their favorite hate symbol, they will fashion a crude one on their own.

[cassanova]

Banning symbols, hate speech, and things of the like, isn't going to solve the problem of racial hatred. In ways, it only creates more anger/hate towards the target group of the haters. I think educating the masses is the key, and even then, that's not always going to work, because some people are so blinded by hate, that they wouldn't believe the truth if it bitch slapped them in the face.

[sandmangeck]

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

The USA is an exception in that symbols like the Confederate Flag stayed legal.

BUT it's about states rights!

[atomicdog]

Let me take this out of the realm of hypothesis and whatnot. Nazis beat down my son and put one of his friends in the hospital a couple of weeks ago. The gang these guys are in started in San Quentin Prison. It's a real problem. My son (a great bass player and drummer) has had to lay low for the past couple of weeks but played a benefit show this weekend that raised $1250 to help offset medical costs for his friend. What is interesting is how quickly his circle of friends have rallied around him and the other target of the attacks. It's the silver lining to this otherwise dark cloud. When this hatred and rage touches you personally (I sat at home last week waiting for these Nazi freaks to put a couple of rounds through my front window), it's quite visceral. It's not a parlor game. It's quite frightening.