Oh, wonderful. Organic has a new definition...

[Bloodhammer]

Genetically engineer me a future! I stay away from "organic" because I don't want dysentery or some other manure-spread disease. j/k
The power play is scary.

[Oneirogenic]

Originally Posted by Datsgor

Ah yes, good old organic gasoline.

There's plenty of organic things you wouldn't want to eat

[Bloodhammer]

I haven't been following this.

Just how much of our food is GE? I've known it's on the market, but I didn't know it was being pushed so hard.

I'm not afraid of the food in and of itself, but the concern that herbicide-resistant weeds (in theory) would mean that stronger herbicides would eventually need to be used, makes me uneasy. Sounds like they should modify humans to be resistant to the stuff, too.

And are GE foods made to be disease resistant? That seems like a no-brainer, but I assume nothing.

[SoonerMatt]

Originally Posted by baba

That's exactly what I think of when I hear organic.

Ditto. I'd say I've taken too much chemistry for my own good but I've learned that there's no such thing as "too much" chemistry

[Simo98]

Originally Posted by boynamedsuse

GMOs are not produced by breeding. Roundup ready grains are made using a chemical process to modify the genetics. The end result is something that cannot be produced by breeding.

Hint: Roundup is not a plant.

Whether or not they are achieved by the same means is, I believe, fairly irrelevant. The end results are essentially the same, the genetic structure of the organism has been permanently and irreversibly changed in some way. It's not impossible that the same effect could be achieved by breeding, who knows what could be achieved, but it would likely take thousands of years and a lot of effort to get the same results you can get in a lab in 5 or 10.


What concerns me is that these modifications are done in a way that is safe and beneficial to society on a whole. Unfortunately, those who finance them rarely have the long term best interests of the world in mind, it's more to do with making money and making it now. This is the problem, not the modifications themselves (IMO).

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Originally Posted by Simo98

Whether or not they are achieved by the same means is, I believe, fairly irrelevant. The end results are essentially the same, the genetic structure of the organism has been permanently and irreversibly changed in some way. It's not impossible that the same effect could be achieved by breeding, who knows what could be achieved, but it would likely take thousands of years and a lot of effort to get the same results you can get in a lab in 5 or 10.

What concerns me is that these modifications are done in a way that is safe and beneficial to society on a whole. Unfortunately, those who finance them rarely have the long term best interests of the world in mind, it's more to do with making money and making it now. This is the problem, not the modifications themselves (IMO).

Yup, +1 on all points.

[jasper383]

Originally Posted by Simo98

Whether or not they are achieved by the same means is, I believe, fairly irrelevant. The end results are essentially the same, the genetic structure of the organism has been permanently and irreversibly changed in some way. It's not impossible that the same effect could be achieved by breeding, who knows what could be achieved, but it would likely take thousands of years and a lot of effort to get the same results you can get in a lab in 5 or 10.


What concerns me is that these modifications are done in a way that is safe and beneficial to society on a whole. Unfortunately, those who finance them rarely have the long term best interests of the world in mind, it's more to do with making money and making it now. This is the problem, not the modifications themselves (IMO).

Yes. The modification of genes has been going on since there were genes.

Mother Nature has been f***ing around with genes (including our human genes) at random since day one. The purposeful and knowledgeable manipulation of genes by scientists doesn't concern me at all.

The very powerful businesses and their access to our governments is a concern.

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Originally Posted by jasper383

The purposeful and knowledgeable manipulation of genes by scientists doesn't concern me at all.

The very powerful businesses and their access to our governments is a concern.

This and this

[jasper383]

The whole anti-GMO thing seems to be based on the idea that that apple growing on that tree over there is supposed to be just like that. When in fact people have been messing around with that apple for hundreds of years, and Nature has been messing with it completely at random from the very beginning.

Don't ever think that Mother Nature has our best interests at heart. She can be a stone cold, uncaring bitch.

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Without a doubt, I just made mention of the manipulation at the hands of people because people seem to have more of an issue with that aspect of it.

[hover]

Originally Posted by jasper383

Nature has been messing with it completely at random from the very beginning.

Don't ever think that Mother Nature has our best interests at heart. She can be a stone cold, uncaring bitch.

Ok, but you're still comparing an evolutionary process with a genetic modification to an otherwise unnatural goal, to have an living organism coexist with an unnatural add on (i.e. carrying an anti-pesticide agent).

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Plants develop thier own resistances, be it to pests or other factors in the environment (pesticides), it isn't all that different to what happens naturally.

[Relic]

Originally Posted by hover

Ok, but you're still comparing an evolutionary process with a genetic modification to an otherwise unnatural goal, to have an living organism coexist with an unnatural add on (i.e. carrying an anti-pesticide agent).

one could argue that genetic modification is just a hastened version of evolution. Look at how bacteria can become antibiotic resistant so quickly. To me at least, it's not so much of a stretch from that to a plant that might be rendered resistant to a pesticide. Sometimes it's not even an active "messing with the genes thing" at times it's been accomplished simply by monitoring levels of exposure and a plant's reaction to the chemical. The plants more resistant are bred and on and on it goes.
Liek others had mentioned, genetic modification doesn't scare me so much as the fact that someone's profiting from it. people can get greedy and careless when $ are involved...

[Relic]

Originally Posted by i_got_a_mohawk

Plants develop thier own resistances, be it to pests or other factors in the environment (pesticides), it isn't all that different to what happens naturally.

Yep, this.

[Jim Nazium]

Your babies will be born naked if you eat genetically modified food.

[MatticusMania]

Originally Posted by jasper383

Yes. The modification of genes has been going on since there were genes.

Mother Nature has been f***ing around with genes (including our human genes) at random since day one. The purposeful and knowledgeable manipulation of genes by scientists doesn't concern me at all.

The very powerful businesses and their access to our governments is a concern.

+1

The modifications are not the problem, its the people making the modifications seeking profit, while putting others out of business and monopolizing the farming industry that I take issue with.

[Bloodhammer]

Originally Posted by Jim Nazium

Your babies will be born naked if you eat genetically modified food.

They'll also wither and die after seventy to eighty years.

Evolution has never been about perfection (a subjective fantasy). It's about filling niches. If modified corn beats out regular corn, it won't make a difference, except that all corn from then on will be better for agriculture. The problem would be with it being patented and therefore causing farmers to have to pay a lot more than they would to grow regular corn.

Does anyone know any good references to this issue - not reactionary blogs or anything biased, but objective info on how big the ag-biotech industry is and its history (particularly Monsanto)? What I've dragged up from wikipedia and such has only got me more fascinated with this and frustrated at the lack of detail.

[MakiSupaStar]

Well, I will try to keep this as non-political as possible. I'm not a fan of Monsanto. In my opinion, Monsanto represents everything that is wrong with corporate America. I'm also not totally opposed to genetic manipulation of foods or organisms if it's done for health benefits, not just for profit. But Monsanto's manipulation of the planet's food supply is a horrible step backwards for humanity, IMO.

Recently, this company has been acquiring companies related to bees. Why do you think they're acquiring bees? Because through successful political and legal maneuvering they've managed to corner the market on key crops in the world and these crops are directly responsible for the alarming decline in bee populations. What everyone fails to talk about is the genetic modification that is done to insure profit and revenue stream. Sure, there's genetic mods done for health benefits (cross-breeding, isolating plants for desired qualities, etc), but when Monsanto does it, they are also modifying their plants with deadly stuff. First off, Monsanto is a chemical company. They successfully lobbied the government and won military contracts that awarded them huge profits for their defoliates, the most popular being Agent Orange used in Vietnam. Because their chemicals are dangerous, and cause deadly illness when handled (imagine handling large amounts of pesticides for acres of crops), they began genetically modifying plants to naturally contain the chemicals they had laying around their labs, so these pests are naturally averse to the plants because of the pesticides in their genetic composition. Additionally, these plants are grown sterile. Monsanto, in an effort to collect on their investment in the research and technology that went into creating these plants insured that that any farmer that grew these genetically modified crops would be forever subscribed to their seeds because after harvest, a farmer would need to acquire more seeds since the plants are sterile.

Additionally, the legal team of Monsanto is infamous for their aggressive legal tactics. First they successfully beat down the patent office with long legal battles over patenting biological processes (which until Monsanto came along was not allowed - you can't patent a biological process) by essentially overwhelming the understaffed patent office with lawsuits. It was a war of bludgeoning attrition and they won. This is the same tactic they use against local farmers that might be neighbors to their corporate farms growing their crops. They routinely audit local farms for Monsanto seeds, and routinely inspect for their land for their crops. So if a farmer over sprays their seed, and it accidentally grows on their property, they sue the crap out of the farmers, who don't have the legal means necessary to defend themselves against something Monsanto, and this is how Monsanto overtakes their farms. They also overwhelm local farmers with frivolous lawsuits knowing damn well they don't have the resources to defend them, and essentially bankrupt them with legal fees, or 'fines' against their patents. Some legendary lawyers have come from the Monsanto team, including our Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas who has routinely sat on Monsanto cases without dismissing himself on a conflict of interest. He also routinely rules in their favor.

This legal team has branched off into politics. They are a big part of the success of the corn lobby that has not only managed to put their gmo corn into almost everything we eat, replacing sugar with high-fructose corn syrup, but who also managed to get congress to start considering corn as an alternative fuel source. All of this adds to their profit. Additionally, they run a large part of the EPA and the FDA, who is headed by their ex VP Michael Taylor. With Taylor in place we start to see situations like we have now with Whole Foods. Their products are getting routinely fast tracked through the FDA approval process and markets are getting forced to sell them. We're also starting to see an onslaught of bs scientific studies touting their benefits, or discredit claims of harm caused by GMO products. (Take a look at that recent Time Magazine article all based on these studies.) Much of this is a response to a legit French study that showed GMO's causing tumor growth in rats. It is also part of a propaganda machine that they are utilizing to try to get a foothold in Europe which has for the most part universally rejected GMO crops. They have even lobbied congress to try to implement sanctions against the european union until they allow Monsanto into their market.

Europe has banned GMO crops and requires labeling for products that indirectly contain GMO's, and for the most part Monsanto as a whole, so Monsanto is lobbying congress to twist Europe's arm into buying their seeds or face sanctions pawning other US products. Monsanto can also be found in almost every progressive third-world company that is trying to become sovereign and self-sustained. They lobby these countries to buy their seeds (that they give away as a loss leader - i.e. like a crack dealer) so they sign up for a subscription at the national level for these sterile seedless plants. They've even strong armed countries like Japan. Politicians love their money. So now we see a company angling for control of our global food supply.

So what's the next step for Monsanto? Bees. The byproduct of all this genetic modification is a bee crisis, and Monsanto knows it. Long story short, if the bees die, we die. We depend on them to pollinate our crops. Monsanto has recently purchased a company that genetically modifies bees as well as a company that simply reports on the state of bees. So they now spin the reports of bee populations for damage control, and through their other company they're also working on creating bees that will only pollinate a new generation of crops grown with Monsanto seeds. These new bees are reported to be larger, and more aggressive than a normal bee, and they have been shown to take over and crowd out normal bees in controlled environments that would be competing for the same resources, essentially killing off other colonies of bees.

So just a recap. You have three types of crops now. Normal crops that are managed with Monsanto pesticides (round-up, etc), GMO crops grown with Monsanto sterile seeds that are genetically spliced with their pesticides, and this new type of crop that is not sterile but can only be pollinated with genetically engineered Monsanto bees that are bred to crowd out and destroy other bees.

How can we possibly let this happen? Well, any new products get fast tracked through the FDA, if there's a legal challenge that makes it to the supreme court they have Clarence Thomas sitting on the SCOTUS. Thomas made his legal career as a lawyer on retainer for Monsanto, and has refused to dismiss himself from cases involving Monsanto on the ground of conflicting interest (btw he has always ruled in their favor). This is all beside their funding of the corn lobby that has successfully put corn into almost every product we consume, which in turn is a contributing factor to childhood obesity, the rise of type II diabetes, and an overweight nation of fat corn fed f*****s (remember all the fat slurpee sucking humans in Wall-E?). There are legit studies coming out of France (the US government won't fund these studies because they like Monsanto's money) that is linking GMO foods to cancer and birth defects. Their response? They buy a huge article in Time magazine posed as an informative piece of investigative journalism touting the benefits of gmo's and how the organic food movement is nothing more than a bunch of well-dressed snake-oil salesmen. All based on Monsanto backed, (non-peer reviewed) 'scientific' studies on the health benefits of GMO's. I'd discredit Time magazine as a piece of crap, but it's widely read (my folks have had a subscription for as long as I can remember) so the damage is already done. Most people don't question what they read or see on TV. So the question is not how can we let this happen, but how do we possibly stop it?

All this aside, I haven't even gone into the detrimental effects on the environment. Monsanto seeds can be found for almost every single crop out there. Their pesticides are so widely used (now they have to use more concentrated formula's because unwanted plants and bugs have become resistant to it) that it's flowing into our rivers, lakes, oceans and water supply and it's evaporating like water so trace elements are in are atmosphere raining down on us. Remember Monsanto created Agent Orange and the growth hormones used in milk that caused birth defects.

All of this aside, I haven't even gone into the detrimental environmental impact this has at a global scale. What we have here is one supermarket chain, but to me it's indicative of a company that is consistently trying to control our food supply. There's nothing good about that prospect.

[boynamedsuse]

Originally Posted by MakiSupaStar

Well, I will try to keep this as non-political as possible. I'm not a fan of Monsanto. In my opinion, Monsanto represents everything that is wrong with corporate America. I'm also not totally opposed to genetic manipulation of foods or organisms if it's done for health benefits, not just for profit. But Monsanto's manipulation of the planet's food supply is a horrible step backwards for humanity, IMO.

Recently, this company has been acquiring companies related to bees. Why do you think they're acquiring bees? Because through successful political and legal maneuvering they've managed to corner the market on key crops in the world and these crops are directly responsible for the alarming decline in bee populations. What everyone fails to talk about is the genetic modification that is done to insure profit and revenue stream. Sure, there's genetic mods done for health benefits (cross-breeding, isolating plants for desired qualities, etc), but when Monsanto does it, they are also modifying their plants with deadly stuff. First off, Monsanto is a chemical company. They successfully lobbied the government and won military contracts that awarded them huge profits for their defoliates, the most popular being Agent Orange used in Vietnam. Because their chemicals are dangerous, and cause deadly illness when handled (imagine handling large amounts of pesticides for acres of crops), they began genetically modifying plants to naturally contain the chemicals they had laying around their labs, so these pests are naturally averse to the plants because of the pesticides in their genetic composition. Additionally, these plants are grown sterile. Monsanto, in an effort to collect on their investment in the research and technology that went into creating these plants insured that that any farmer that grew these genetically modified crops would be forever subscribed to their seeds because after harvest, a farmer would need to acquire more seeds since the plants are sterile.

Additionally, the legal team of Monsanto is infamous for their aggressive legal tactics. First they successfully beat down the patent office with long legal battles over patenting biological processes (which until Monsanto came along was not allowed - you can't patent a biological process) by essentially overwhelming the understaffed patent office with lawsuits. It was a war of bludgeoning attrition and they won. This is the same tactic they use against local farmers that might be neighbors to their corporate farms growing their crops. They routinely audit local farms for Monsanto seeds, and routinely inspect for their land for their crops. So if a farmer over sprays their seed, and it accidentally grows on their property, they sue the crap out of the farmers, who don't have the legal means necessary to defend themselves against something Monsanto, and this is how Monsanto overtakes their farms. They also overwhelm local farmers with frivolous lawsuits knowing damn well they don't have the resources to defend them, and essentially bankrupt them with legal fees, or 'fines' against their patents. Some legendary lawyers have come from the Monsanto team, including our Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas who has routinely sat on Monsanto cases without dismissing himself on a conflict of interest. He also routinely rules in their favor.

This legal team has branched off into politics. They are a big part of the success of the corn lobby that has not only managed to put their gmo corn into almost everything we eat, replacing sugar with high-fructose corn syrup, but who also managed to get congress to start considering corn as an alternative fuel source. All of this adds to their profit. Additionally, they run a large part of the EPA and the FDA, who is headed by their ex VP Michael Taylor. With Taylor in place we start to see situations like we have now with Whole Foods. Their products are getting routinely fast tracked through the FDA approval process and markets are getting forced to sell them. We're also starting to see an onslaught of bs scientific studies touting their benefits, or discredit claims of harm caused by GMO products. (Take a look at that recent Time Magazine article all based on these studies.) Much of this is a response to a legit French study that showed GMO's causing tumor growth in rats. It is also part of a propaganda machine that they are utilizing to try to get a foothold in Europe which has for the most part universally rejected GMO crops. They have even lobbied congress to try to implement sanctions against the european union until they allow Monsanto into their market.

Europe has banned GMO crops and requires labeling for products that indirectly contain GMO's, and for the most part Monsanto as a whole, so Monsanto is lobbying congress to twist Europe's arm into buying their seeds or face sanctions pawning other US products. Monsanto can also be found in almost every progressive third-world company that is trying to become sovereign and self-sustained. They lobby these countries to buy their seeds (that they give away as a loss leader - i.e. like a crack dealer) so they sign up for a subscription at the national level for these sterile seedless plants. They've even strong armed countries like Japan. Politicians love their money. So now we see a company angling for control of our global food supply.

So what's the next step for Monsanto? Bees. The byproduct of all this genetic modification is a bee crisis, and Monsanto knows it. Long story short, if the bees die, we die. We depend on them to pollinate our crops. Monsanto has recently purchased a company that genetically modifies bees as well as a company that simply reports on the state of bees. So they now spin the reports of bee populations for damage control, and through their other company they're also working on creating bees that will only pollinate a new generation of crops grown with Monsanto seeds. These new bees are reported to be larger, and more aggressive than a normal bee, and they have been shown to take over and crowd out normal bees in controlled environments that would be competing for the same resources, essentially killing off other colonies of bees.

So just a recap. You have three types of crops now. Normal crops that are managed with Monsanto pesticides (round-up, etc), GMO crops grown with Monsanto sterile seeds that are genetically spliced with their pesticides, and this new type of crop that is not sterile but can only be pollinated with genetically engineered Monsanto bees that are bred to crowd out and destroy other bees.

How can we possibly let this happen? Well, any new products get fast tracked through the FDA, if there's a legal challenge that makes it to the supreme court they have Clarence Thomas sitting on the SCOTUS. Thomas made his legal career as a lawyer on retainer for Monsanto, and has refused to dismiss himself from cases involving Monsanto on the ground of conflicting interest (btw he has always ruled in their favor). This is all beside their funding of the corn lobby that has successfully put corn into almost every product we consume, which in turn is a contributing factor to childhood obesity, the rise of type II diabetes, and an overweight nation of fat corn fed f*****s (remember all the fat slurpee sucking humans in Wall-E?). There are legit studies coming out of France (the US government won't fund these studies because they like Monsanto's money) that is linking GMO foods to cancer and birth defects. Their response? They buy a huge article in Time magazine posed as an informative piece of investigative journalism touting the benefits of gmo's and how the organic food movement is nothing more than a bunch of well-dressed snake-oil salesmen. All based on Monsanto backed, (non-peer reviewed) 'scientific' studies on the health benefits of GMO's. I'd discredit Time magazine as a piece of crap, but it's widely read (my folks have had a subscription for as long as I can remember) so the damage is already done. Most people don't question what they read or see on TV. So the question is not how can we let this happen, but how do we possibly stop it?

All this aside, I haven't even gone into the detrimental effects on the environment. Monsanto seeds can be found for almost every single crop out there. Their pesticides are so widely used (now they have to use more concentrated formula's because unwanted plants and bugs have become resistant to it) that it's flowing into our rivers, lakes, oceans and water supply and it's evaporating like water so trace elements are in are atmosphere raining down on us. Remember Monsanto created Agent Orange and the growth hormones used in milk that caused birth defects.

All of this aside, I haven't even gone into the detrimental environmental impact this has at a global scale. What we have here is one supermarket chain, but to me it's indicative of a company that is consistently trying to control our food supply. There's nothing good about that prospect.

That post is a masterpiece.

I have a friend who spent several years here in the USA and recently returned to his home in South America. His wife is a beekeeper and I've heard the stories about the bees. I never thought I would care about bees, but they are dying off by the millions or billions and have for a few years now. This is unprecedented in history and genuinely frightening if you know the ramifications.

[hover]

Maki, you're apparently just imagining it, where's your tinfoil hat?