Penn State - What Do We Expect From Others / From Ourselves?

[Sonicfrog]

This is going to be a very philosophical thread. In light of all the obvious mistakes that are now documented in the Penn State scandal, are there any instances in your own life where you didn't live up to expectations... Didn't do "the right thing"? I posted this on a Penn State Thread, but i didn't want to sidetrack that one with this topic.

Here is my story

I know from personal experience that you won't always do what is the "expected" thing to when confronted with a shocking situation.

When I was 18, I was a very innocent 18, had never been in trouble with the law... Hell, had only gotten swats at school once, and that was for excessive tardiness. (and I chose swats over the othr punishments because it was quick, and I was the only one in my group of friends who had never had them, so I felt left out) One dark summer night while driving to a drama party to celebrate the successful run of a play i was in, I chanced upon an accident.... in the worst way. It was on Ave 18 on the edge of the very small town I lived in. I was crossing over the highway overpass arch and as I came over the bend, I saw there were 4 cars stopped in the opposite lane.

OK, there is a turn off to the highway right there, so that isn't abnormal. But the car in front had its brights on, so I couldn't see much of anything until it was too late. I had slowed down, but not enough. In the blink of an eye, yet in slow motion, it happened. I saw two people standing in the middle of my path waiving their arms, then jumping out of the way. Where they were I saw a dog.. a box.. a cat... Which was what my mind was trying to say was the thing I was about to run over was, even though I knew exactly what it was. I barely had time to hit the brakes before I ran over the dead body!

So I came to a screeching halt, jump out of the blue pinto exclaiming "Oh My God I'm Sorry I Couldn't See Him". The two people ran up to me yelling at me. The tall male, who I figured was the dead body's son by the way he was reacting was yelling at me to move my car, get the hell out of here. That really didn't make sense, but it was what he was saying.

Before I go on I need to reiterate that I was never ever in any trouble before every. Except for the occasional funny quip, was the quiet mouse in high school. I was also very short for my age, only about 5'2" at this time. I bring this up because the son was quite a bit taller than me, and to my young mind, he was older, probably in his mid 20's, so he was in that instance an authority figure of sorts. When i stop the car and got out, I had no intentions of leaving the scene at all. Period. But the guy was yelling over and over to "move your f***ing car" "Get the F*** out of here"... I don't recall him adding that he was going to kill me, but he could have.

How many of you have had your whole life changed in an instant? My life was rather dreary, but this was an instant life changer. I had never been face with anything like this at all. I had often dreamed I would be the one who ran into the burning building to save the puppy, that I would be the hero. But dreams are not life. And whatever dream I might have been living with, it was shattered this night. I was in complete shock. After a few moments of being yelled at to do something, I did that something. Even though I knew the proper procedure was to ALWAYS stay at an accident, I did as I was told, walked back to my car, and drove slowly off into the night. I did the only thing my shock clouded brain could think of, which was go to the party.

At the party, I didn't interact much with anyone. That wasn't that abnormal as I was pretty shy to begin with. Still, even though I was in complete shock, I kept my cool. Only one person asked if something was wrong. I told him I was a little under the weather.

After about twenty minutes or so, news came to the party that there had been an accident on 18th. I started to unfog from my shock a little when I realized that one of the guys who wasn't there yet also drove a pinto, and what if the cops stop him and he get in some sort of trouble because they are looking for me for running over the dead body? I got up off the couch, got in my car, and drove the five or so miles back into town to the police station so I could tell them what had happened.

Being a small town, there was no one at the police station, so I had to pick up the white courtesy phone to tell them i was there and I needed to talk to someone about the accident. After a squad car arrived, I went into a room with the two officers, told them exactly what happened. They left the room for about ten minutes or so, then came in and arrested me for hit and run. At this point my world was spinning, but it got much worse when they said right now it's a misdemeanor, but if he dies.......

WHAT?!?!?!?!? HE'S STILL ALIVE????? I ran over a LIVE body in the road!!!!!

Making the phone call to my parent telling them I was going to jail was THE HARDEST CALL I've still ever had to make in my life. Dad had to second mortgage the house to bail me out.

The guy was drunk riding a motor cycle, just coming back from his daughters wedding. He tried to get on the freeway, but turned on the off ramp instead. He go side swiped by a car and ended up in the middle of the road. His family was right behind him and saw the accident.The guy told them to not move him. Yes, he was conscious before I got there. Amazingly, he was still alive after.

By the time the arrangement hearing came around a couple of months later, some things had come to light. The police did not buy my version of events, they didn't believe the guy was telling me to get the hell out of here. But witnesses from the other cars that had stopped corroborated that is indeed what the son was yelling at me. Another judge may have dismissed the case, but happened to be in front of the hard ass in town, and he gave me one years DA's probation, stating that if I got into trouble within the year and ended up in front of him again, he would throw the book at me. If not, the case would be completely expunged from the records. . All things considered, that was not a horrible outcome.

So many mistakes were made that night. Even though the family tried to sue me every which way from tomorrow, including for damages to the motorcycle, which I never touched, and "lack of consortium" which translates that they couldn't have whoopee while he was in the hospital, (they only got maybe $10,000 from my insurance company) I never blamed them for the accident. They were as much in shock as I was. If I were to blame anyone, it would have been the people who had stopped after the first accident, for either not moving him or at least stopping traffic on the other side of the bridge. But I can't blame them.




My case was a nothing-burger compared to this Penn State case. Yet it is a reminder that people don't always do the right thing. They may not have been fully aware that they were doing the absolute wrong thing. They were moving things up the chain of command, which, in so many ways as human beings, is what we are programed to do.

As for me. I never blamed myself for what happened. It provided a valuable life lesson, that people don't always do the things they are expected to do... Even me, the dream hero. But it still hurt when a few friends, after I told them what happened, exclaimed "Well that was stupid!... Why did you leave????". In the end, of course, they were right.

PS. No, I hadn't been drinking before the accident. As I said, I was never in trouble. I was also not a drinker in high school, and had hardly had any beer at all during that period in my life. Which is a very good think, because IF I had taken that drink that someone offered me at the party, I would have been in much much deeper doo doo when I turned myself in. The beer WAS tempting considering what I had been through, but I knew that I would be making an appearance at the police station, and that would have done me no good.

[MakiSupaStar]

wow. That's a crazy life lesson right there. Thanks for sharing it and being so open.

[Relic]

As I said in the other thread - a bad choice, a bad decision in an otherwise crappy situation does NOT automatically make one a bad person.
As for me, I have nothing quite so dramatic but I've done some crappy things that I'm, not proud of.
I'd hate to think that only those things would define who I am - they don't, but are a part of me nonetheless. We're all human dude.

Matter of fact, it takes balls sharing that story, that earns a bit of respect I'd say!

[Gaius46]

Live long enough and you'll do things that you will eventually regret.

There are a few things in life I wish I never did or did differently. Even so I hope that I'm more than those things.

[LiquidMidnight]

Wow, Sonic, I read your post in the PSU thread and it was difficult to read for me; I just can't fathom being in a situation like that! I'm glad that things worked out for the positive for you, though. That's the reason why I have a problem with manslaughter being a crime in many instances. Unless you were driving recklessly, it's asinine to charge you for running over a body lying out in the middle of the road on a foggy night. But I digress...

I'm a grad student, and in addition to being a graduate assistant, I also work as a mock interviewer for my university's career development center. In essence, students - mostly undergrads - come in and I give them what is often their first taste of what a professional interview is like. One question that I almost always ask is "Tell me about a time in which you were confronted with a morally ambiguous situation and how did you resolve that?"

I ask that question because we like to believe that everything related to morality is black and white and we'd always act as upstanding pillars of ethics, but without getting into a big philosophical debate about ethics and meta-ethics, it's just rarely that clear cut. You're going to be confronted with morally ambiguous situations in life and it's naive to think otherwise. I totally agree with what Dr. Cheese was saying in the other thread about how we often don't answer the call to morality as much as we like to think we do. I love the Milgram and Zimbardo studies (which ironically would never make it past an IRB nowadays), because they empirically illustrate just how fragile are our self-professed ethics.

[Clark Dark]

In regards to the Penn State situation. Here in Philly the local sports stations have been roasting Paterno. They say he could've done more. But in 1998 Joe was a spry 72 with health issues. He wasn't built like John Cena under his sweaters. If the parent had the SOB wiretapped in 1998 and got an admission of guilt and the police didn't lock him up what could Paterno do? Run into a phonebooth and re-emerge as Johnny Weismuller? I'm not a Paterno booster but I believe the police screwed up more than the coach did.
That SOB was taped admitting to the mother of a victim that he indeed molested her child and the police should've given him the perp walk immediately. Imagine how powerless that mother felt when the police did not discharge their sworn duty. Realistically what more could Paterno have done if even the police seemed to ignore the criminal event. Yeah, if I had witnessed it I probably would've kicked Sandusky's arse and 13 years later (maybe more I'm afro-american ) after a hearing to get released from prison for *doing the right thing* the question of why the police did not arrest Sandusky 13 years ago would still be paramount, especially to the parents of all his victims.
End of rant.

[LiquidMidnight]

Originally Posted by Clark Dark

In regards to the Penn State situation. Here in Philly the local sports stations have been roasting Paterno. They say he could've done more. But in 1998 Joe was a spry 72 with health issues. He wasn't built like John Cena under his sweaters. If the parent had the SOB wiretapped in 1998 and got an admission of guilt and the police didn't lock him up what could Paterno do? Run into a phonebooth and re-emerge as Johnny Weismuller? I'm not a Paterno booster but I believe the police screwed up more than the coach did.
That SOB was taped admitting to the mother of a victim that he indeed molested her child and the police should've given him the perp walk immediately. Imagine how powerless that mother felt when the police did not discharge their sworn duty. Realistically what more could Paterno have done if even the police seemed to ignore the criminal event. Yeah, if I had witnessed it I probably would've kicked Sandusky's arse and 13 years later (maybe more I'm afro-american ) after a hearing to get released from prison for *doing the right thing* the question of why the police did not arrest Sandusky 13 years ago would still be paramount, especially to the parents of all his victims.
End of rant.

+1

I keep hearing about how Paterno should have done more. The only thing I'm critical about Paterno in this case is that he should have barred Sandusky from the facilities once he learned about the allegations. They're allegations and don't rise to the level of a smoking gun, but it would have been a good precaution. Other than that, I don't know what else Paterno could have done, because he would just be going to the police with hearsay. He wasn't the material witness and he could have opened himself up to libel if it came out that McCreary was not being truthful.

Sorry, didn't mean for this subject to spill over into this thread, but I just wanted to put my two cents in.

[Sonicfrog]

No sweat..... it's kind of the same thread, only with a different twist.

[MatticusMania]

In response to the thread title, without the Penn State part, I would say that we probably have a tendency to expect more from others than we do ourselves. We might all sit and feel rest assured that we expect of ourselves the same as we expect from others, but as Dr. Cheese said, sometimes we tend to fall short of our own expectations.

[Sonicfrog]

Originally Posted by MakiSupaStar

wow. That's a crazy life lesson right there. Thanks for sharing it and being so open.

The day after was very interesting. One of the first things I did was get in the car and just drive around. I knew if I didn't do that, I would be scarred and scared of driving. From the very first time I got behind the wheel of a car, I loved driving. Had to make sure I did not develop a phobia of being on the road. That said, for years afterward, when I was driving at night, especially in a city or area where there were a lot of overpasses I was going under, I would often wonder "Is this the bit where lightning strikes twice - Is someone going to jump off that bridge just as I'm about to go under it?". It wasn't a fear, but rather a contemplating moment. Really, you never know what strange and unpleasant things can happen in an instance.

But getting back to the initial accident. During the first few months after, I would have moments of introspection and self examination. I remember mowing the lawn countless times, going over the events of that night in my head as the lawn mower droned on. I recognized fairly quickly that my innocence, my isolation and recoil from sticking my neck out and getting to know first hand the consequences of life, my inexperience had hurt me that night. Funny thing is, in time, once I reflected on it and realized I'm not infallible, it made me a stronger person.

I still had a long long way to go before I gained the self confidence I have today - which is the only reason I'm so comfortable writing about this. This was regardless my first step of the porch of adolescence into adulthood. It was a hell of a step though.

[cassanova]

Making a few bad choices by not always doing the right thing, doesn't necessarily make one a bad person.

I'll share a little story with you that not many of my friends know.
Back in 1989, when I was 19, my buddies and I were stationed at Camp Pendleton. We were out and about enjoying our liberty in Oceanside. It was our first time in California, so we wanted to see all we could. Our first night out in town, we saw a guy jump from Oceanside Pier. We were young, "brazen" Marines, so we all stood there questioning whether we should jump into the water to help him, yet not one of us did. To this day, I can still see him clinging to the pillar and hear his voice, just saying "please," before going under and not resurfacing. We never did see the rescue divers pull anyone up either. My buddies and I still talk about it from time to time, and at the time it happened, we felt very bad for not jumping in, because we believe the right thing to do would've been jump in and try to help him, but 22 years later, we have fewer regrets, because we all realize that, we may very much been in need of rescue too.

[Sonicfrog]

That's a hard one. It was just this spring that a man had waded out to a rocky area on the San Francisco coast. Because they didn't have the right equipment or training to fetch him from this precarious spot, all the could do was watch for an hour as the guy was beaten against the rocks and drowned.

[Clark Dark]

Is there any separation between State College police, the University police and the County police? Which of these can be considered credible now? The County DA who decided there would be no criminal charges is presumed dead and his files were erased from his computer. Maybe he's in Tahiti or somewhere else abroad. In that neck of the woods the University trumps law enforcement it seems. And how is it Sandusky gets bail? How could a judge allow it considering the crimes?

[kanonfodr]

Originally Posted by cassanova

My buddies and I still talk about it from time to time, and at the time it happened, we felt very bad for not jumping in, because we believe the right thing to do would've been jump in and try to help him, but 22 years later, we have fewer regrets, because we all realize that, we may very much been in need of rescue too.

Originally Posted by Sonicfrog

That's a hard one. It was just this spring that a man had waded out to a rocky area on the San Francisco coast. Because they didn't have the right equipment or training to fetch him from this precarious spot, all the could do was watch for an hour as the guy was beaten against the rocks and drowned.

First rule of rescue: Don't create another victim. Only you can decide whether you are trained, equipped, AND ready to effect a rescue in any situation; feeling bad because you didn't go in sure beats forcing the real responders to drag 2 dead bodies out.

Back to the original subject, the only time you can truly say what you will do in any situation of duress is after the fact. Before I deployed my first time, we had three serious "heroes" in my unit. One went AWOL three weeks before we shipped out and was never seen or heard from again. The second got mouthy and swung at a guy who was twice his size a few days into our stop in Kuwait, he was sent home with his mouth wired shut and missing several teeth. The third, our "First Sergeant", was dragged kicking, screaming, and crying to our FOB by both the Battalion Commander and Sergeant Major. He hung around for 3 weeks before he completed a quick and dirty Change Of Responsibility and was shipped back to FOB Warrior.

The best you can do in any situation is have the ability to see that you can act positively and have the intestinal fortitude to make your stand. While I'm fairly certain that, in the witnessing student's shoes, I would enjoy stomping Sandusky's butt into the nearest mudhole; the truth is that even I, a two-time combat veteran who's not known for his timidity in the face of adversity, have no clue how I would act in that situation until I get there (and I hope I never do).

Peace,
Greg