Pit Bulls. Great dogs or cold-blooded killers?

[Downunderwonder]

Right. So we have to consider a breed's propensity for getting offside with humans and it's ability to follow through. I submit that the combination is far worse in pitbull crosses I have seen than other big terriers.

[Relic]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

Right. So we have to consider a breed's propensity for getting offside with humans and it's ability to follow through. I submit that the combination is far worse in pitbull crosses I have seen than other big terriers.

Ok, so let's consider the breed's propensity to get offside with humans - can you quantify that? And if so, can you tell me about the owners in those cases? That, as well as the conditions that the dog was kept in?
Again - it's a very tenacious belief of mine that you'll find the lion's share of fault in the type and mindset of owner.
This is what I see here at least. Many many very irresponsible pit owners here. It's sad and small wonder why the breed is looked down on so much.
Somewhere here I had posted a decent video about the history of the pit, if I can dig it up I'll post it, I think you'd find it interesting.
Again - I'm not asking you to suddenly "love" the breed, it's that I suspect you're basing your opinion on some unfounded assumptions.

[Downunderwonder]

Originally Posted by Relic

You know, I'm accepting your point of view in that I understand that you don't particularly like the breed, ok. No worries at all. What really bugs me though is that you're making a lot of really baseless statements. I challenge you to learn more, then come back and speak facts, figures etc. Again - no disrespect meant on this side. I sincerely mean that, I just feel that you're really working on some naive beliefs there.

Naive beliefs? I believe we differ on our view of the sensibility of keeping dogs bred for fighting to the death as pets. Otherwise we're pretty well on the same page?

[Relic]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

Naive beliefs? I believe we differ on our view of the sensibility of keeping dogs bred for fighting to the death as pets. Otherwise we're pretty well on the same page?

I say "naive" because I'm not sure that you're really basing these assumptions on facts, just sensational media and popular lore which is rife with...crap, not facts.
IF - a pit is bred only to "fight to the death" (which is not entirely true at all, mind you) then how do you explain pit therapy and service dogs?

[Ziltoid]

Haters

[Farley]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

Naive beliefs? I believe we differ on our view of the sensibility of keeping dogs bred for fighting to the death as pets. Otherwise we're pretty well on the same page?

Pitbulls, American Staffordshire’s and the like were not bred for fighting to the death – this is a very sad misconception of the breed(s). That is what many are led to believe because of the actions and carelessness of people who have exploited the breed. I grew up around bully breeds, among others, and worked for several years at an animal hospital and never once experienced an aggressive Pitbull. No breed of dog is immune to aggression – it’s amazing what a lineage of inbreeding and stupidity can do to a dog. I’ve seen Beagles who would have no sooner torn out your jugular than be your friend…

[sloasdaylight]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

Do real pits not give everyone they meet an intimidating stare? I must have only come across mongrels.

To me a pitbull is a big terrier made to go in a fight pit and kill other dogs. I don't think it was out of love for dogs that we have a recognised pedigree breed of American Pit Bull. I understand that social graces are good to have in a fight dog so this makes them loving loyal pets.

But I don't think you can convince me your average purebred pit doesn't have it in him to kill a human that gets on the wrong side of him, mistreated or not. This is the premise of the thread, not "I love my pit".

If you want to be ignorant that's your call, but expect to get called out on it.

"This breed is eager to please and brimming over with enthusiasm. APBTs make excellent family companions and have always been noted for their love of children. Because most APBTs exhibit some level of dog aggression and because of its powerful physique, the APBT requires an owner who will carefully socialize and obedience train the dog. The breed’s natural agility makes it one of the most capable canine climbers so good fencing is a must for this breed. This breed does very well in performance events because of its high level of intelligence and its willingness to work."

http://www.ukcdogs.com/Web.nsf/Breed...errier12012012

No, the premise, and original question of this thread is "Are Pitbulls good family dogs, or bloodthirsty killing machines." You have your ignorant opinion. Others of us have informed opinions, many of which are backed up by the UKC, the AKC, and many other respectable dog breeder associations.

[Downunderwonder]

Originally Posted by Relic

Ok, so let's consider the breed's propensity to get offside with humans - can you quantify that? And if so, can you tell me about the owners in those cases? That, as well as the conditions that the dog was kept in?
Again - it's a very tenacious belief of mine that you'll find the lion's share of fault in the type and mindset of owner.
This is what I see here at least. Many many very irresponsible pit owners here. It's sad and small wonder why the breed is looked down on so much.
Somewhere here I had posted a decent video about the history of the pit, if I can dig it up I'll post it, I think you'd find it interesting.
Again - I'm not asking you to suddenly "love" the breed, it's that I suspect you're basing your opinion on some unfounded assumptions.

Please post the vid. I'll get to watching it tonight.

You're right about the average "calibre" of owners here.

Local to me a little girl was chomped by a socialised pit X which took exception to her walking past the open driveway. Owners devastated.

Farmer killed by his own pit X pig dogs, I'm sure pig dogs bite farmers all the time but they don't wind up killing them.

My own experiences meeting supposedly safe pit crosses and finding them unusually intimidating, even while passive. Other big dogs don't maintain an aura of "one false move you're dog tucker" towards me like that.

I'm typing on phone in between work so I can't reply to everyone having a go at my dissenting view.

APBT isn't bred to fight in a pit much these days I hope. Denying what they are at heart, right there in the name for pete's sake, seems too dangerous when a good chunk of owners can't control them properly even when they try. This is my objection to keeping them around.

[Relic]

Actually...if you ever get the time and a desire to research this subject a bit, go through this thread. Lots of good stuff here - some of it along the lines of how you feel, some it explaining some of the misconceptions and so on, overall, I think it's actually damn cool thread if I might say so

here's a quick vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hw5aThdcxsE

edit - yeah I think this is the one I posted earlier. Please give it a look when you get a few. It gives a brief rundown on their history. Good stuff.

[Balog]

Oh, so you're just "intimidated" by the scary mean looking dogs, and are trying to rationalize your cowardice by demonizing the breed. Gotcha.

[Relic]

Originally Posted by Balog

Oh, so you're just "intimidated" by the scary mean looking dogs, and are trying to rationalize your cowardice by demonizing the breed. Gotcha.

Well, in his defense, if all I heard and saw about a particular breed was negative, then if I were to be staring down a dog of that breed, I'd think it looks evil and menacing as well. Just human nature... a big cuddly St Bernard could look demonic if all you heard about it was it's desire to eat baby faces...

[sloasdaylight]

Only one of these is the American Pitbull Terrier. I'm wondering if some of the Pitbull detractors know which dog it is.

[malthumb]

Originally Posted by sloasdaylight

Only one of these is the American Pitbull Terrier. I'm wondering if some of the Pitbull detractors know which dog it is.

First of all, I really do not know which, but I'm going to GUESS bottom left (#4! With blue tag) only because it looks less ferocious than the others. It also resembles my brother's dog who might one day have to be put down for licking someone to death. Guessing that's the point of the montage. The "most obvious and fierce looking dogs" are not Pits. My 2nd choice would be #6 because it looks LEAST like any of the Pits I've seen.

[sloasdaylight]

Originally Posted by malthumb

First of all, I really do not know which, but I'm going to GUESS bottom left (#4! With blue tag) only because it looks less ferocious than the others. Guessing that's the point of the montage. My 2nd choice would be #6 because it looks LEAST like any of the Pits I've seen.

As an FYI, I grabbed the majority of these images straight from wikipedia, so there wasn't a calculated effort to try to make one of these dogs seem more or less ferocious than another.

[Relic]

Originally Posted by malthumb

First of all, I really do not know which, but I'm going to GUESS bottom left (#4! With blue tag) only because it looks less ferocious than the others. It also resembles my brother's dog who might one day have to be put down for licking someone to death. Guessing that's the point of the montage. The "most obvious and fierce looking dogs" are not Pits. My 2nd choice would be #6 because it looks LEAST like any of the Pits I've seen.

Bottom left definitely, I agree.

sad point is that if any one of these dogs attacked someone, they'd likely ALL be called "pit bulls" by the media...

[sloasdaylight]

Originally Posted by Relic

Bottom left definitely, I agree.

sad point is that if any one of these dogs attacked someone, they'd likely ALL be called "pit bulls" by the media...

Yep. From top Left to right, and then bottom left to right they are as follows
#1 - Gull Dong (Pakistani fighting/protection dog)
#2 - Staffordshire Terrier
#3 - American Staffordshire Terrier
#4 - American Pitbull Terrier
#5 - American Bulldog
#6 - Dogo Argentino

[Zooberwerx]

Any animal, when stressed, will "default" to his base instincts to prolong the likelihood of survival. Dogs, by nature, are pack animals with their own particular subset of traits including social orders (hierarchy / pecking order)and territorialism which, luckily and for the most part, complements that of the human master. Questions are: what constitutes stress and what possible harm / injury may result given the animal's potential?

Riis

[Relic]

And here's the sort of story that also make the news but also seems to not garner as much attention:

BTW- no not a Pit "feel good" story...

http://www.baynews9.com/content/news...overing_a.html

yet another case of "animals owning animals"

[Downunderwonder]

Crikey, I get asked to justify myself, do so and get called a coward for finding the product matching the advertising.

Blue collar was easy to pick out. I'm sure if you tried to make it difficult it would be impossible for me to separate American Staffs from Pits. 1 & 5 sure fit the "fighter" mold!

See how wee pit's ears say "high alert"? That look maintained by a dog after you've been introduced says to me "watch it bud, I got you covered". Maybe I'm wrong but it has been SOP for pits in my experience.

[sloasdaylight]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

Crikey, I get asked to justify myself, do so and get called a coward for finding the product matching the advertising.

Blue collar was easy to pick out. I'm sure if you tried to make it difficult it would be impossible for me to separate American Staffs from Pits. 1 & 5 sure fit the "fighter" mold!

See how wee pit's ears say "high alert"? That look maintained by a dog after you've been introduced says to me "watch it bud, I got you covered". Maybe I'm wrong but it has been SOP for pits in my experience.

I think you just have no idea how to read dog body language and are afraid of bigger dogs.