"Plastic" brass knuckles as a self-defense item?

[Armueller2001]

Ran across these online



Apparently they're made of high-impact plastic and are supposed to be as strong as the metal version... and I had a look into Illinois state law which specifies "metal knuckles" in their unlawful use of weapons but nothing about plastic... thinking I might pick up a pair to keep in my pocket. Good thing to have "just in case"

[ehque]

I'm not sure how they make you safer, but do you have any friends in law or law enforcement that you can check with?

[bassfacekevin]

they (lawmakers) usually like to keep some sort of verbage about "knuckle-duster" like objects. Blanket statements make it much easier to incarcerate you, should they feel the need too. I would check out something much more effective and legal (pocket knife.)

[jonathan_matos5]

i have a friend who carries a collapsible night stick. but im not sure if it is legal or not.

[Vince S.]

Originally Posted by Armueller2001

Ran across these online



Apparently they're made of high-impact plastic and are supposed to be as strong as the metal version... and I had a look into Illinois state law which specifies "metal knuckles" in their unlawful use of weapons but nothing about plastic... thinking I might pick up a pair to keep in my pocket. Good thing to have "just in case"

Does Illinois allow CCW?

Also, if you're looking for lawful impact weapons, you should check out kubatons.

[Depth_Charge]

Meh ... My guess is if it looks like a weapon and has been designed to be used as a weapon the law will interpret your use of it as using a weapon which is never a good thing.

Also, consider that with such a close range weapon, if you can land a punch with them on you can land 'em without.

Also consider that from a legal standpoint, if you're really defending yourself in the heat of an assault, you shouldn't have the time to put something like this on. And the law doesn't usually look kindly upon the types who arm themselves for "defense", "just in case". If you're arming, you're expecting to use

Defense is supposed to be about creating an opportunity to get out of there, not knock people out cold...so if you're fitting these while facing off I doubt it would be classed as defense.

Of course these opinions of mine are all based on local aussie law and I have no idea about the law in the US regarding the use or concealment of these weapons

[ADbassman]

I used to carry a metal pair around. They're rather cumbersome.

[Vince S.]

Originally Posted by Depth_Charge

Defense is supposed to be about creating an opportunity to get out of there, not knock people out cold...so if you're fitting these while facing off I doubt it would be classed as defense.

That's just a plain frightening concept.

[RiseOfTheWooten]

How about you just learn to perfect the one-inch punch, so you won't need to carry around these knuckle things?

[Armueller2001]

Originally Posted by ehque

I'm not sure how they make you safer, but do you have any friends in law or law enforcement that you can check with?

Well, having a way to defend yourself and tilt the odds a bit if attacked will obviously make a person safer. I do have a couple friends in law enforcement, I'll have to ask them next time I see em. Funny thing about police in the U.S. is that sometimes when someone isn't doing anything illegal, but are doing something a police officer thinks SHOULD be illegal, they'll get locked up anyway until the cop is informed that there is no law the person was violating. Makes for a dandy "wrongful arrest" lawsuit if one were so inclined. Maybe I should print off the "unlawful use of weapons" statute and keep it in my wallet for ignorant officers.

Originally Posted by bassfacekevin

I would check out something much more effective and legal (pocket knife.)

I don't really feel comfortable with a knife in a defensive situation because of my lack of skills, and the way those types of confrontations usually turn out.. they say there are no winners in a knife fight. If by some chance my weapon was taken and used against me, I'd rather have it be plastic knuckles than a knife any day.

Originally Posted by Vince S.

Does Illinois allow CCW?

Also, if you're looking for lawful impact weapons, you should check out kubatons.

Illinois is one of two states that do not allow CCW. Funny thing too, I just got my Florida non-resident CCW permit in the mail, and 28 states trust me enough to carry a concealed handgun in... many other states allow "open carry"... but the state I reside in, and pay taxes to, does not permit me to defend myself and my family effectively outside of my home, open OR concealed.

As far as I know, this does not classify as a concealed weapon though. I did look into kubatons, aka "keychains" and am deciding between one of those and these polymer knuckles.

Here's what I found from Illinois state law-

(720 ILCS 5/24-1) (from Ch. 38, par. 24-1)
Sec. 24-1. Unlawful Use of Weapons.
(a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons
when he knowingly:
(1) Sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses or
carries any bludgeon, black-jack, slung-shot, sand-club,
sand-bag, metal knuckles, throwing star, or any knife,
commonly referred to as a switchblade knife, which has a
blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to
a button, spring or other device in the handle of the
knife, or a ballistic knife, which is a device that propels
a knifelike blade as a projectile by means of a coil
spring, elastic material or compressed gas......

[RiseOfTheWooten]

As Depth Charge said above, the law is unlikely to let you off because of a slight technicality of 'metal' or 'plastic'. I'm pretty sure 'intent' is also a factor, do you or did you intend to use the plastic item as a weapon? I've seen lots of other things - pens, pencils, everyday items, classified as a 'dangerous weapon' when used in context by the assailant, much less plastic knuckles that looks like, smells like and behaves like a metal one.

[Armueller2001]

Originally Posted by RiseOfTheWooten

As Depth Charge said above, the law is unlikely to let you off because of a slight technicality of 'metal' or 'plastic'. I'm pretty sure 'intent' is also a factor, do you or did you intend to use the plastic item as a weapon? I've seen lots of other things - pens, pencils, everyday items, classified as a 'dangerous weapon' when used in context by the assailant, much less plastic knuckles that looks like, smells like and behaves like a metal one.

I'm not interested in attacking people and the only use I would ever have for something like that is for self-defense. So yes, I would use them as a weapon, but not offensively.

[RiseOfTheWooten]

Originally Posted by Armueller2001

I'm not interested in attacking people and the only use I would ever have for something like that is for self-defense. So yes, I would use them as a weapon, but not offensively.

According to the Illinois law you posted above, it's already an offence just to be in possession of the knuckles. Whether it's plastic or metal, I think, will probably be a moot point because if this ever went to court, the law would probably be determined to express what the intention of the legislators were when they first framed this piece of law. So whether it's metal or plastic, if the plastic knuckles are heavy enough, sturdy enough, strong enough, to do the same kind of damage that a pair of metal knuckles would do, then as I said, it'd be a moot point, and there's every chance it will be construed as a weapon.

For example - the plastic knuckles aren't really made for any other purpose are they? That is, do you think you'll be able to successfully argue that it's only for decoration purposes? The keychain or kubotan, on the other hand, is a keychain. It's a piece of wood or plastic with a metal ring stuck at one end where you can hang your keys. By definition it's a keychain, not necessarily a weapon. The knuckles, by definition, is a knuckle duster however you try to re-define it. You'll need Johnny Cochrane to convince the judge it's a cigar holder that happens to look like a knuckle duster.

Even so, one can never predict what will happen in a real street altercation. If you manage to land a clear punch on the guy right on his sweet spot and he falls and hits his head on the concrete, and he suffers brain damage (that's grievous bodily harm) or he dies because of that impact (that's murder/manslaughter) then the fact that you had that weapon in your hand will probably count against you, unless you could argue that the other guy was armed with a knife or a gun, or that the other guy was much bigger and stronger than you are.

Either way, self-defence is a very different argument that applies to the complete circumstances of the case after the fact. According to the Illinois law you posted above, it's clear that it is considered an offence just to walk around with a gun or a knife hidden in your pants. You can't just say that it's for self-defence, that would be inconsequential. Notwithstanding that, it could also be argued that because you were walking around with a potential weapon, that you could've been potentially walking around looking for a fight (and therefore, by inference, you are the aggressor).

[ehque]

Originally Posted by Armueller2001

Well, having a way to defend yourself and tilt the odds a bit if attacked will obviously make a person safer.

I don't really feel comfortable with a knife in a defensive situation because of my lack of skills, and the way those types of confrontations usually turn out.. they say there are no winners in a knife fight. If by some chance my weapon was taken and used against me, I'd rather have it be plastic knuckles than a knife any day.

If you're not prepared to practice how to defend yourself with a knife, i don't see how the plastic knuckles will help. In an unarmed fight with an agressor who probably thinks he can take you on, the plastic knuckles have zero effective or deterrent value. If he is armed, they are even more useless. My advice is to know your exits and run.

In short, in any situation where you can't run (cornered, armed agressor) the knuckles won't be of any help either.

[bassist 4 life]

+1 for kubotons.

[dancehallclasher]

Brass knuckles are not a self-defense weapon. They're a weapon for someone who secretly hopes he gets attacked (possibly after he goes around provoking people) so he can beat someone's face in and feel justified about it.

To defend yourself get something incapacitating like a stun gun or pepperspray, and some running shoes.

[peterbright]

Use a Davy Crockett on them.

[sk8erste]

Originally Posted by peterbright

Use a Davy Crockett on them.

hahaha nice

[FL Knifemaker]

I'd rather carry a Munchkin Blaster in my pocket.

Dave Erickson, Pistolsmith:

[Benjamin Strange]

In New Orleans, you can use anything you want to defend yourself. Hell, two years ago I broke up a fight where one guy was beating the other guy to death with a tire iron. He claimed self-defense in court - and got off. Apparently he carries a tire iron in his pocket for "just in case".