A Police Shooting

[Dr. Cheese]

http://www.theroot.com/buzz/naked-un...nd-killed-lapd

This story bothers me because my gut tells me that the killing was unnecessary. I know the young man was out of line, and showed poor judgement, but if being drunk and belligerent were a capital offense, I suspect more than a few TB'ers would be dead already, not to mention sports fans or undergraduates in general.

[Mark Latimour]

Originally Posted by LATimes

The shooting occurred about 3:30 a.m. when two patrol officers responded to a disturbance call in the 5200 block of Crescent Park West and found a naked man "yelling and behaving erratically," according to an LAPD statement.

Police said the officers attempted to calm the agitated man and talked him into putting on his boxer shorts, but he ran when they tried to apprehend him. They approached him again, but he ran once more.

"When the officers tried a third time to detain the suspect in the apartment complex doorway, the suspect immediately attacked both officers," the statement said. "The suspect repeatedly punched both officers in the face and head and at one point tried to take one of the officer's guns."

That's when one of the officers, identified only as a male with 17 months in the department, shot Doucet twice, police said. He died at a hospital.

Source: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...lay-model.html

Don't taze me bro?

[R. Laevinus]

Ahh, the plot thickens.

[bassteban]

If you attempt to take someone's gun away, do not be surprised if you get the bullet(s)first.

Edit: Mind you I'm not happy anyone got shot.

[macaroni tony]

Was this guy related to Early Doucet?

[Dr. Cheese]

I'm not painting the dead guy as a saint. I just suspect that he could have been arrested and not killed. For what it is worth, I do have a limited background in law enforcement (I was a licensed security guard,) and believe me, when a suspect is killed, the cops always say their lives were threatened, since that will legally justify a shooting, furthermore, since the "perp" is dead, their side will be the only one ever heard unless a video pops up.

[Mark Latimour]

According to the news, both officers were treated in hospital for minor injuries (both had facial injuries and one had ankle injuries). Apparently the more senior officer (the one who didn't shoot) was "battered and dazed" when other officers arrived on scene. Now, perhaps the police are lying, but it seems to me if the guy was drunk enough to batter two officers and make a go for one of their guns, he's kinda playing with fire. It seems odd that they didn't try and mace him or something first, but I wasn't the one getting punched by a drunk naked man.

[bassteban]

True, all that^

What Cheese said, I mean

[fenderhutz]

You try to a grab an officers gun, you get shot. Drunk or not.

The officers could have tried to taze him but if he was already throwing punches and reaching for a gun they had to make a split second judgement. I believe they were in their legal rights and justified.

I hate seeing someone get shot, but from how the story reads, someone was going to get shot anyway.

[SonicBlueJoe]

Haven't enough of these been Monday Morning Quarterbacked on TBOT already?\

I know, I know, I'll just move along...

[Dr. Cheese]

Originally Posted by Mark Latimour

According to the news, both officers were treated in hospital for minor injuries (both had facial injuries and one had ankle injuries). Apparently the more senior officer (the one who didn't shoot) was "battered and dazed" when other officers arrived on scene. Now, perhaps the police are lying, but it seems to me if the guy was drunk enough to batter two officers and make a go for one of their guns, he's kinda playing with fire. It seems odd that they didn't try and mace him or something first, but I wasn't the one getting punched by a drunk naked man.

It's not unusual for cops to get some injuries when arresting resistant suspects. Once again, I didn't see it, and the officers may not have had any choice, but shooting belligerent drunks, even very and strong belligerent drunks, is rare enough to make me question things a bit.

Another point is that in the UK, cops don't carry guns, so getting your gun grabbed would not be an issue for arresting a drunk. In the case where there are two cops and the suspect is clearly unarmed (naked in this case) maybe one cop should have approached him without a gun, but should have been ready to billyclub his balls or tase him if he tried something.

[pacojas]

(rookie mistake)

[Mark Latimour]

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

It's not unusual for cops to get some injuries when arresting resistant suspects. Once again, I didn't see it, and the officers may not have had any choice, but shooting belligerent drunks, even very and strong belligerent drunks, is rare enough to make me question things a bit.

I just don't see any grounds for questioning this at this stage. Calling him a "belligerent drunk" is an obvious attempt to downplay his condition. The evidence (admittedly one sided) suggests that the officers were attacked (which is clear from their injuries) and the suspect went for their gun. Unless you think the police are lying (or there is evidence to suggest otherwise), I don't think there is anything suspicious here. What grounds do you have for being suspicious (ie is there a story which sheds some light on this)?

Another point is that in the UK, cops don't carry guns, so getting your gun grabbed would not be an issue for arresting a drunk.

Some cops carry guns, but no this wouldn't be an issue in the UK. Then again, I don't see why that's really relevant since it didn't occur in the UK, it occured in the US where everyone knows the cops carry guns (including the deceased who apparently tried to grab it!).

In the case where there are two cops and the suspect is clearly unarmed (naked in this case) maybe one cop should have approached him without a gun, but should have been ready to billyclub his balls or tase him if he tried something.

Maybe, but I wasn't there. However, IIRC the LAPD don't have such a great history with approaching black suspects with their clubs at the ready!

[MIJ-VI]

"...Doucet was single but has a daughter who is 3 or 4 years old..."

[Dr. Cheese]

Originally Posted by Mark Latimour

I just don't see any grounds for questioning this at this stage. Calling him a "belligerent drunk" is an obvious attempt to downplay his condition. The evidence (admittedly one sided) suggests that the officers were attacked (which is clear from their injuries) and the suspect went for their gun. Unless you think the police are lying (or there is evidence to suggest otherwise), I don't think there is anything suspicious here. What grounds do you have for being suspicious (ie is there a story which sheds some light on this)?



Some cops carry guns, but no this wouldn't be an issue in the UK. Then again, I don't see why that's really relevant since it didn't occur in the UK, it occured in the US where everyone knows the cops carry guns (including the deceased who apparently tried to grab it!).




Maybe, but I wasn't there. However, IIRC the LAPD don't have such a great history with approaching black suspects with their clubs at the ready!

Mark, I'm not trying to down play anything. The deceased was a belligerent drunk, IMO. I said in my first post that I was not trying to paint him as good or not at fault. I suspect he did not have to be killed, but the dead man was clearly wrong for starting the situation.

My grounds for suspicion lie in the fact that drunks are arrested quite often and deaths are very rare, and more than a few resist arrest too.

[Jared Lash]

The fact that the officer who did the shooting is relatively inexperienced makes me wonder if this should have been prevented. But there's really no way to have an intelligent conversation when none of us knows exactly what happened and has to resort to conjecture or alternate theories to fill in the blanks.

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

In the case where there are two cops and the suspect is clearly unarmed (naked in this case) maybe one cop should have approached him without a gun, but should have been ready to billyclub his balls or tase him if he tried something.

An officer's gun is part of his uniform and only drawn from its holster if there appears to be a need for deadly force. There's no reason he would remove it to deal with a belligerent drunk. In fact, pulling a weapon (even to "unarm" himself to deal with an unarmed suspect) is verboten.

[Dr. Cheese]

Originally Posted by Jared Lash

The fact that the officer who did the shooting is relatively inexperienced makes me wonder if this should have been prevented. But there's really no way to have an intelligent conversation when none of us knows exactly what happened and has to resort to conjecture or alternate theories to fill in the blanks.




An officer's gun is part of his uniform and only drawn from its holster if there appears to be a need for deadly force. There's no reason he would remove it to deal with a belligerent drunk. In fact, pulling a weapon (even to "unarm" himself to deal with an unarmed suspect) is verboten.

I admit that I don't know what happened, and clearly only side can talk now. I just think shootings of drunks are rare enough that this deserves a second look.

[MakiSupaStar]

I would say the dude probably deserved at least a tazing. But it's hard for me to say for sure. There just isn't enough of this story for me to say one way or the other if the shooting was justified.

I'm not sure, but was the suspect black? Is this the reason for the thread? Because if we're going to have a thread about how the police have less patience for black suspects (something I wouldn't mind discussing) we're going to need a lot better story than this Cheese. There just isn't enough here IMO.

[Dr. Cheese]

Originally Posted by Mark Latimour

Maybe, but I wasn't there. However, IIRC the LAPD don't have such a great history with approaching black suspects with their clubs at the ready!

You kind of made my point. When I was a guard, I would told upfront that if we ever needed to shoot someone, to make sure we killed them. If the perp doesn't talk, then the officer's word is the only one that can be taken.

I suspect you are refering to Rodney King, had the police just shot and claimed they saw a weapon, none of them would have spent a day in jail or court.

[Dr. Cheese]

Originally Posted by MakiSupaStar

I would say the dude probably deserved at least a tazing. But it's hard for me to say for sure. There just isn't enough of this story for me to say one way or the other if the shooting was justified.

I'm not sure, but was the suspect black? Is this the reason for the thread? Because if we're going to have a thread about how the police have less patience for black suspects (something I wouldn't mind discussing) we're going to need a lot better story than this Cheese. There just isn't enough here IMO.

The suspect was black, but what is the point in making hay about that? The thread would simply turn into another "Dr. Cheese is pulling the race card situation."