QIN???...C'MON

[1958Bassman]

Originally Posted by Lonesomedave

no, i'm sorry...those do not count...they are all chinese and subject to the same objections that i have about QIN...

you can say a tail is a leg but that don't make it one...


my point is...why did they do it in the first place? "Q" is not pronounced "CH" in any other context...so why did they do it here?

The Chinese language doesn't have a Q in it, that was inflicted on them by the English, or whoever got their first. Marco Polo is said to be one of the first, but AFAIK, the Portuguese don't have Q in their alphabet, either.

It's a little late in the game to complain, I think.

[Munjibunga]

When I was in high school, our foreign exchange student was a Moslem.

[1958Bassman]

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

When I was in high school, our foreign exchange student was a Moslem.

Just before first semester of senior year ended, we got an Irani (the correct word, according to him) kid in our physics class. Seemed decent enough, although he may have been the lone person from that area. Pretty sure he kept to himself because I don't remember anyone talking about him, ever.

If he was Muslim, he must have absolutely hated going there- the school was about 40% Jewish when I was there.

[Munjibunga]

Originally Posted by 1958Bassman

... AFAIK, the Portuguese don't have Q in their alphabet, either.

Neither do the Hawaiians. B,C,D,F,G,J,R,S,T,V,X,Y,Z, either.

[Munjibunga]

Originally Posted by 1958Bassman

Just before first semester of senior year ended, we got an Irani (the correct word, according to him) kid in our physics class. Seemed decent enough, although he may have been the lone person from that area. Pretty sure he kept to himself because I don't remember anyone talking about him, ever.

If he was Muslim, he must have absolutely hated going there- the school was about 40% Jewish when I was there.

I was just pointing out that, back in the day, Muslims were Moslems.

[Lonesomedave]

was Marco Polo Portuguese?....i thought he was Italian.

what do Moslem and Muslim have in common?...well, both words have been transliterated into western languages using letters that made sense for the pronunciation being sought....



ps-edit...as, for that matter, have Iraq and Qatar

[1958Bassman]

Originally Posted by Lonesomedave

was Marco Polo Portuguese?....i thought he was Italian.

what do Moslem and Muslim have in common?...well, both words have been transliterated into western languages using letters that made sense for the pronunciation being sought....



ps-edit...as, for that matter, have Iraq and Qatar

You're right- I was tired, the sun got in my eyes, my suit didn't come back from the cleaners, Sun spots, I tripped on a rock, a friend came from out of town, IT'S NOT MY FAULT!

[matante]

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

Many people in the US still say "EYE-talian" for Italian. It's a fairly hideous mispronunciation.

and many of them are of Italian descent.

Originally Posted by FourBanger

It wasn't the Chinese doing that, it was westerners.

It happens when using such hugely different languages that rarely even have common sounds.

In Chinese my name, Robert, comes out 罗伯特, or Luōbótè using western characters, and is pronounced loosely low-bew-ta because they don't use the sound for R or end words/sounds with a hard T.

You need to bear in mind spoken chinese is in redibly complex with regard to inflection. The same syllable, when rendered in western letters, could mean four or more different words when pronounced with different inflection. Needless to say any one translation is not going to be ideal.

In most spoken Chinese dialects, the sounds we can make for chi, ki, or qi are not the correct way to start the word anyway, but approximations, so none are correct and all are correct. One version might be more correct to a native English speaker, another to a native Dutch speaker, and a third to a native Russian speaker.

Originally Posted by giacomini

I agree.

So are you guys saying that Qin being pronounced as Chin is a western invention? Are you saying westerners decided both the pronunciation and the spelling? That's what the OP is asking.

If the purpose of Pinyin is to be able to spell Chinese words in a way that they can be read in English, then they should follow English rules of spelling/phonics.

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by matante

and many of them are of Italian descent.





So are you guys saying that Qin being pronounced as Chin is a western invention? Are you saying westerners decided both the pronunciation and the spelling? That's what the OP is asking.

If the purpose of Pinyin is to be able to spell Chinese words in a way that they can be read in English, then they should follow English rules of spelling/phonics.

I agree: it's their country and they have a right to call it what they want, but they can't expect every non-Chinese speaking country to use spelling that doesn't conform with that country's own language. Ridiculous.

[MatticusMania]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

I'm a little perplexed by your attitude regarding this. Normally you're pretty level headed...

+1

This thread reeks of ethnocentricity.

[giacomini]

And yes, portuguese have em all, Q, W, X, Y... you name it, we have it!

No cyrillic characters or elaborate accents thou.

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by MatticusMania

+1

This thread reeks of ethnocentricity.

Nonsense. Nobody is disputing their right to name their country, but whether you're speaking Mandarin, Spanish, English, or Italian, why shouldn't the name make phonetic sense in that particular language?

I know quite a few Japanese people, and they don't care that we don't call their country "Nihon" or "Nippon". In fact they prefer we don't use those names unless spoken in Japanese.

[Thick McRunfast]

Link to a simple Mandarin pronunciation guide. Listen to the difference between "ch" and "q".

http://mandarin.about.com/od/pronunc...in-Chinese.htm

[MarkMgibson]

I don't think anyone has a problem with how they pronounce their country's name (nor should they), but they can't expect dozens of languages to use spelling which is phonetically ridiculous in that language. Their spelling doesn't make sense in English, but I'm betting it's even worse in other languages. One of my best friends is Spanish, and she doesn't expect me to call her country "España", unless I'm speaking Spanish (and I'm told my Spanish is an insult to her ears "and those of her ancestors"). A bit over the top, but she has a point.

[Lonesomedave]

Originally Posted by MatticusMania

+1

This thread reeks of ethnocentricity.

well that's a big ol' word, aint it...don't know what it means, neither....

i reckon i'll just have to ask my Chinese Wife, when she gits home.....

[Jazz Ad]

Originally Posted by Lonesomedave

well...considering that chinese do not have an alphabet like ours, but have borrowed ours to phonetically spell their words (not passing judgment here, just saying)

Please, tell me this is an attempt at trolling and that you truly realize that
A. The Latin alphabet isn't an English alphabet. Over 150 language families use it and many use a Q in the middle of words.
B. China doesn't need the Latin alphabet to communicate between Chinese speaking people, only to accomodate occidental needs.
C. Alphabets don't belong to anyone and can be used indiferently by all languages.
D. English speakers barely have a grasp of the proper way Chinese shall be spoken because phonemes used in English are both different and limited compared to what is used in Chinese languages.

[Lonesomedave]

Originally Posted by Jazz Ad

Please, tell me this is an attempt at trolling and that you truly realize that
A. The Latin alphabet isn't an English alphabet. Over 150 language families use it and many use a Q in the middle of words.
B. China doesn't need the Latin alphabet to communicate between Chinese speaking people, only to accomodate occidental needs.
C. Alphabets don't belong to anyone and can be used indiferently by all languages.
D. English speakers barely have a grasp of the proper way Chinese shall be spoken because phonemes used in English are both different and limited compared to what is used in Chinese languages.

please tell me you are not trolling...

when i say "ours", why did you think i was attempting to glom on to the alphabet (which is, after all, traceable back even farther than the ancient Romans and Greeks) as an English thing

and since it IS only used between Chinese and non-chinese as a way of transliterating Chinese words in a way that sort of makes sense....it would seem to make sense to do so in a way that sounds roughly like what you are trying to communicate.

as to your "C", i think the word you are looking for is "Differently"....but, as you point out, the chinese don't use the alphabet except to communicate with outsiders.

as to "D", well no lie...that's not chinese's fault, that's OUR (if you will excuse the term) fault...but so what....the purpose of transliteration is to, hopefully, minimize that.

look it's quite simple....

take any third grader who is a reasonably proficient reader and have them pronounce the word Iraq (or even "Qatar") and i bet they will either nail it or come pretty dern close.

take the same third grader and show them the word QIN, and then get back to me and tell me how they do.



ps-edit...and, just for curiousity...how can you make an "ATTEMPT" at trolling?....you either are trolling or you are not....as Yoda said "there is no trying...either do or don't do"

[hrodbert696]

Originally Posted by Jazz Ad

D. English speakers barely have a grasp of the proper way Chinese shall be spoken because phonemes used in English are both different and limited compared to what is used in Chinese languages.

Originally Posted by Lonesomedave

as to "D", well no lie...that's not chinese's fault, that's OUR (if you will excuse the term) fault...but so what....the purpose of transliteration is to, hopefully, minimize that.

look it's quite simple....

take any third grader who is a reasonably proficient reader and have them pronounce the word Iraq (or even "Qatar") and i bet they will either nail it or come pretty dern close.

take the same third grader and show them the word QIN, and then get back to me and tell me how they do.

In a sense, this is the difference between the Wade-Giles and Pinyin transcriptions. Wade-Giles is what you give the third-grader; something they can pronounce that approximates what the word was in the original language.

The problem is that English phonemes DON'T match Chinese ones, and there are sounds in their language that NO Latin letter can capture as that letter is normally pronounced. To your third-grader (or Joe on the street) that doesn't matter, but if a person is going to actually study China and communicate with others about China, you need a system of transcription that is more accurate; otherwise Wade-Giles is going to produce transliterations where YOU CAN"T TELL which of three or four different Chinese words is meant.

To deal with that inaccuracy, the Pinyin system assigns (rather arbitrary) values to certain Latin letters (generally the less-used ones like X and Q) to allow them to stand in for Chinese phonemes that have no clear Western analogue. As far as I've ever heard it's only widely used among China experts, not the general public.

Imagine someone trying to transcribe English into a language that had no vowels. You would end up writing WNT with no way to show whether the word intended was "want," "won't" or "went." So you would have to borrow, or invent, some arbitrary symbols for people reading in that alphabet to know which word was intended. And somebody on an internet forum is going to gripe about how it makes no sense to spell WNT as W#NT.

[Lonesomedave]

Originally Posted by hrodbert696

In a sense, this is the difference between the Wade-Giles and Pinyin transcriptions. Wade-Giles is what you give the third-grader; something they can pronounce that approximates what the word was in the original language.

The problem is that English phonemes DON'T match Chinese ones, and there are sounds in their language that NO Latin letter can capture as that letter is normally pronounced. To your third-grader (or Joe on the street) that doesn't matter, but if a person is going to actually study China and communicate with others about China, you need a system of transcription that is more accurate; otherwise Wade-Giles is going to produce transliterations where YOU CAN"T TELL which of three or four different Chinese words is meant.

To deal with that inaccuracy, the Pinyin system assigns (rather arbitrary) values to certain Latin letters (generally the less-used ones like X and Q) to allow them to stand in for Chinese phonemes that have no clear Western analogue. As far as I've ever heard it's only widely used among China experts, not the general public.

Imagine someone trying to transcribe English into a language that had no vowels. You would end up writing WNT with no way to show whether the word intended was "want," "won't" or "went." So you would have to borrow, or invent, some arbitrary symbols for people reading in that alphabet to know which word was intended. And somebody on an internet forum is going to gripe about how it makes no sense to spell WNT as W#NT.

finally, an answer that sort of answers my question...thank you master!

and of course, you are right...chinese, to my understanding (and my chinese wife has tried to sort of explain this to me) has relatively few words compared to english or other european languages (correct me if i am wrong)

what it does have, seemingly, is numerous subtle pronunciation differences between words, that to us, sound almost the same...he**, would be the same in english or another european language.

if you tell me it's arbitrary, that's what i've said, but since they have a reason, well, who am i to say what they can and cannot do. (as has been pointed out to me ad nauseum)

it would seem that wade-giles is the way to go, both for those third grade readers and others who just want to basically pronounce words in the ballpark....and for those who say "ballpark is not good enough, I want to pronounce words correctly"...i say, well, have a go and the very best of British luck to ya... until you have tried to learn chinese and the subtle differences in how words are pronounced, you don't know what difficult is

[ADbassman]

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

I was just pointing out that, back in the day, Muslims were Moslems.

Both are technically correct, so long as the same meaning is conferred. They are just different transliterations of the word مسلم. With diacritics, the word is مُسْلِمْ , where the short vowels are represented by diacritics Dhamma and Kasra. The dhamma represents the short vowel "u" and the kasra represents the short vowel "i". I think "moslem" may actually come from Turkish pronunciation and transliteration, since by modern standards the more correct transliteration is "muslim", but I don't know for sure.

This chart breaks it down pretty well if you're into that sort of thing:

http://web.gc.cuny.edu/ijmes/pages/transliteration.html