Question for grade school teachers...

[tZer]

I am a parent of a boy who is in 2nd grade.

He's a challenge in the behavior department - I'll admit, but he does well academically. And as for how challenging - I've seen worse. So while I'll admit he's an outgoing kid with 'class-clown' tendencies, it's nowhere near behavioral disorder territory...

Earlier this year - Fall quarter - His teacher started a system to help keep some of his disruptive behaviors in check - a tally sheet. When my son did something disruptive, he was assigned a tally and had to bring the tally sheet home for us to see and discuss.

We did so, as concerned parents should. If he came home with a tally he had to explain to me in his own words why he got it and how he should have behaved. He also had consequences leveled that helped drive home these lessons.

After a few weeks of him coming home with tallies, they started happening less and less until finally the teacher decided the tally sheet was no longer needed. We were told by his teacher that his behavior was much better and that was the reason there was no longer a need for the tally sheet.

Between then (late November) and today (mid February) we had no indication whatsoever that his disruptive behavior returned until my wife received an email from his teacher who was apparently at the end of her rope with my son's behavior.

She went to great lengths describing what sounded like a nightmare of a discipline problem in class and said she would not feel comfortable sending him to third grade because of it. She even went so far as to inquire if we had spoken to his pediatrician about his behavior.

This information came completely out of the blue. Some of his other teachers had gone out of their way to tell my wife how much he has matured. She is very involved with his school and volunteers in classrooms regularly, so she's very accessible to his teacher - and she knows this.

We've noticed at home that he's definitely maturing and his behavior at home and elsewhere is perfectly fine.

I responded to her email letting her know that this information was quite a shock to us and we wondered why she had not either re-implemented the tally system that seemed to work so well before - and more importantly, why we didn't have any indication there was such a problem until it go so bad she decided to email my wife about it with such a dim view of his ability to advance in grade...

I have met his teacher at parent teacher conferences and she struck me as a little bit of a perfectionist and my initial impression was that she seemed like she should be teaching much older kids, but otherwise normal.

I have requested a face-to-face meeting with her and the 2nd Grade principal to go over her concerns and to get answers as to why we were not kept informed. That meeting should happen later this week.

So - am I dealing with a teacher who simply does not like my child? Have any of you grade school teachers ever had a student that you simply couldn't tolerate? Please give me some insight from a teacher's perspective.

I am rather miffed at this one and I'm quite prepared to level strong complaints with her principal - even look into having my son moved to another class if it seems she's simply written him off or if she is not able to provide good answers regarding why she didn't re-institute the corrective measures that worked before or more importantly, why we were not informed of any of this.

[McHaven]

I'm not an elementary teacher, but I worked with 5 year olds for 12 weeks, 8 hours a day over last summer as a camp counselor. It does sound like the teacher may just not like your son. It isn't supposed to happen, but it does. When I was working with these kids, there were a few that tested my paitence so much that I would make sure their parents heard about it. Other kids that were typically good, but involved in the same activity probably wouldn't receive the note home.

I don't know what to tell you, but I hope the meeting allows you to figure it out.

[fdeck]

Yes, it is possible for a teacher to not like a kid. There are kids that I don't like, and teachers are human just like us. My third grade teacher admitted to my mom that she didn't like me. As it turned out, I was merely bored out of my skull. I think this is even more of an issue with bright kids in today's elementary school environment.

The teacher has proven that your son can behave in class, or not, based on a simple skill that she has already demonstrated.

What's it like in his classroom? Is the teacher controlling the class? Is she challenging your son sufficiently, or is he bored?

[Nedmundo]

What does your son say about the teacher? I'd be interested in that, and what his other teachers (gym, art) have to say, because it's entirely possible he and his main teacher are just a bad match for each other. That can be a problem in any relationship, and this is no exception.

We went through this with our younger daughter when she was in pre-K at a Montessori school. It had been a wonderful school for our older daughter, but the little one had a different teacher, who was strict to the point of rigidity. The little one is extremely bright, and even more stubborn. That was a bad mix, because while our daughter can be difficult and needs strong limits at times, she needs subtle handling at other times, when artistry is better than rigidity. The teacher was incapable of this, possibly due to burn-out.

They simply butted heads constantly, and at one point our daughter poured water over her teacher's head. So the school's psychologist visited the class, we had a conference with the psychologist and the head of school, etc. The whole bit. Things improved, but it was never a good match, as the psychologist recognized.

The next year, we moved her to a Quaker school. Within a week, we had a new child. She was happy, and thrilled every day to be going off to school. Her teachers provided an incredibly warm atmosphere where she could flourish, and that's continued for two more years. She still needs to "slow down" at times, but the negative defiance has completely disappeared. Maturity is part of this, but the change during those first two weeks of pre-K was remarkable, and I attribute it to a better match with her teachers.

I am a teacher, but at a law school, so the students are much older. Do I have some I'm not crazy about? Sure, but thankfully that's rare, and because it's more of a professional relationship than formative relationship, personal incompatibility rarely gets in the way.

Good luck!

[DigMe]

You just need to go to the meeting and hear her out and lay out your side before you make the call that she hates your kid or that there is smething wrong with her. Perhaps things just went way south that particular week and that day had been very bad for her and your son. Maybe she should have waited a day before firing off the email. Things happen. The only thing that strikes me as strange is wanting to hold him back strictly because of behavior. It hasn't ever crossed my mind to hold a kid back for that but I know that sometimes in the lower grades the parents and teacher will make that decision together after deciding that the child is just not at an emotional maturity level needed to advance. To be honest, as a 4th grade public school teacher I do not have the authority to hold a child back without parent consent unless te child's average for the year is a failing grade.

I would just take a deep breath (mentally, I mean), give her the benefit of the doubt based on her past handling of your child (which sounds pretty solid with the behavior plan and whatnot) and go into the meeting with the attitude and assumption that you are all seeking to do what's best for the child. That is almost always my attitude in working with parents and it usually results in amicable agreements. Ask for specifics regarding his behavior (speific behaviors, teacher response and what consequences resulted) and what led to such feelings towards the student.

I'll be honest here - 95% of the time when a parent comes to me angry about something it's usually because they are not getting the full story from their kid so regardless of the past keep in mind that it's a possibility. Not to say that I haven't seen teachers doing things that make me raise my eyebrows because I certainly have.

Bottom line - go with an open mind and an open heart willing to listen and with specific questions but try to stay calm and logical.

Best of luck.

bc

[tZer]

Thanks everyone very much for responding! I need to be able to read everything thoroughly to take it all in. I am going to do that then respond, but I wanted to thank everyone for listening and responding.

[ehque]

My parents pulled me out of school (enrolled in a different one) when i was 7. Apparently there were irreconcilable differences between me and my form teacher, who in this particular school would follow me up through the grades until i was 12. 1 and a half years in that school was living hell.

On hindsight my self-diagnosis would probably be that i was bored - I was topping the school at that time and the teacher didn't like that (somehow). She went out of her way to give me a lot of problems.

[tZer]

All - I've picked up a couple common themes:

1) teachers of grade school age kids can indeed have students they simply don't like. This is obviously not exclusive to teachers - I don't like some of the kids my son and daughter hang with.

2) boredom = acting out.

Both are highly probable in my son's case. I've met his teacher a few times and I always felt that her disposition seemed more in line with teaching older, more mature kids.

Her demeanor is very 'matter of fact' - emotionless and cold. While I am not expecting Mary Poppins, I do feel teachers of young kids need to have a certain degree of warmth and empathy. Kids are all over the map, developmentally at age 7 and 8.

As for his other teachers' opinion of him - they have all gone out of their way to seek out my wife when she is there volunteering to tell her how much he's matured and improved in their classes.

My son is a 'young' 2nd grader - his birthday is in late April - which makes him one of, if not the youngest in his class. So clearly he'll be somewhat behind the others developmentally. But not so much as to warrant being held back. His grades are all perfectly fine - average and above in all subjects.

Honestly, I could live with the fact that she simply doesn't like my son if that didn't seem to also mean she's apparently given up on him. Not notifying us in a timely fashion and opting not to use a corrective measure that proved quite effective in the past seems like setting him up for failure.

She knows how to throw the proper switches to get his train back on track - she's obviously not willing to throw them. It feels like a case of self-fulfilling prophecy to me... She's already decided he's a lost cause and by her inaction she's ensuring he lives up to that diagnosis.

Today was his first day back after we received the email last Friday. I corresponded with her back and forth a few times letting her know in very measured phrases that, while I certainly understand her need to maintain a stable classroom environment, I was not thrilled with the fact that she neither tried to correct his behavior nor inform us in a timely fashion.

I hope (for both my son's and her sake) that my son didn't arrive in class this morning with a 'punishment' tally sheet greeting him out of the blue...

[Thor]

subbed.

[MakiSupaStar]

I teach 7th and 8th graders. I see well over a hundred students each day. I can find something I like in almost everyone of them. I still have a few students that drive me up a wall, but I wouldn't go as far as to say I don't like them. I probably only have 2-3 students that I can honestly say I don't like. Even so this does not effect the way I grade them.

As far as holding a kid back goes, I think the teacher (based on what your saying - there are two sides to every story) is a little out of line. First off, studies show that retention is rarely effective, and ends up being detrimental in the long run. Kids that are retained, have a very high drop out rate. Anyway, in California (not sure what the law is in your state) retention is not possible without parent consent.

I suggest following digme's advice. Have the meeting, even reassure the teacher that you support her and that you're on her side regarding her behavior correction techniques, and suggest a behavior plan that is easy for her to implement (could be that extra measure she had to take was a pain in the ass for her) and let her know what your going to do on your end to present your son a united front. Try to keep a cool head (imagine what it's like when your a teacher going into a parent teacher conference ) and realize that she is just one of many teachers he will have. You don't have to love them all.

Now let's clear up a couple of things for my own head. Is this teacher hot? Is she Asian?The reason I'm asking is for purely scientific reasons.

[fdeck]

Originally Posted by MakiSupaStar

As far as holding a kid back goes, I think the teacher (based on what your saying - there are two sides to every story) is a little out of line. First off, studies show that retention is rarely effective, and ends up being detrimental in the long run. Kids that are retained, have a very high drop out rate. Anyway, in California (not sure what the law is in your state) retention is not possible without parent consent.

Good points. I think in the OP's case, retention would be the worst choice. If the kid is acting out due to boredom, guess how it will be if he is held back. One of our daughter's pals was acting up in 2nd grade, so they promoted him to 4th grade the next year. Now the school seems like it is moving away from rigid grade levels altogether.

I suggest following digme's advice. Have the meeting, even reassure the teacher that you support her and that you're on her side regarding her behavior correction techniques, and suggest a behavior plan that is easy for her to implement (could be that extra measure she had to take was a pain in the ass for her) and let her know what your going to do on your end to present your son a united front. Try to keep a cool head (imagine what it's like when your a teacher going into a parent teacher conference ) and realize that she is just one of many teachers he will have. You don't have to love them all.

Wise advice.

[tZer]

I appreciate the insights and advice.

If I am anything, it's professional. I learned long ago to stay on point, listen and always assume there's more to the story. I won't pretend that I haven't allowed myself the odd 'tell her off' fantasy, but that's as far as that sort of self-indulgent BS goes.

My wife (who is a pre-school teacher and is quite accustomed to dealing with difficult children) have been polling our teacher friends in an effort to see if there may be angles we're simply not seeing and/or if his teacher's actions are as off as they appear. So far, the polls have come back with lots of check marks in the 'she's not quite right' column.

Another example of how she seems to be missing an aspect of what it means to be a 2nd grade teacher is evident in the following anecdote:

Our kids' school has what they call 'Character Awards' each week where kids are honored with awards for good character qualities - like compassion, creativity, generosity, honor, etc... The idea is to give kids praise and a moment in the sun in front of their peers and the whole school. All teachers seem to understand that it's not really a 'contest' and they should be able to make sure every kid gets at a chance to be honored - well, all but one, apparently.

Every Friday when they give out the awards my son is so excited because he things he might get one - and each Friday he comes home without one. So for this entire year, kids in his class have gotten multiples - he's gotten jack... He doesn't let it get him down - and I'm glad for that - but it's a real drag that he would really like his turn and she doesn't seem to be able to come up with a reason to give him one. Pulheeze... Really?

Now, forgive me, but honestly... does she not get it? My son does very well academically, he has not missed a single day this year, he does great in art, music, all other classes - hell - I know he's a clown, but he's an innocent, good natured clown, not a malignant freak. - yet each Friday - nope... nada...

So - yes, I will maintain my cool. I will be going in very prepared to express my willingness to support her efforts to maintain an orderly classroom and to encourage her to support my son and to try not see him as an adversary or a challenge to her authority.

I will not, however, allow this opportunity to go by without acquainting her with how her actions and lack thereof are impacting the situation. My wife is very active at the school and we both have done nothing but support his teacher's efforts to correct his behavior - when we're given the chance.

She won't be getting a new one torn for her - this time.

[hrodbert696]

Hard to tell without more specific info on the situation. It could be your son, or it could be the teacher, or an unfortunate combination of circumstances.

My son is in 6th grade, and was getting into a lot of trouble earlier this year. We made it clear to him that he needs to respect his teachers and take responsibility for his actions. But when we explored the situation, we found out that there is another kids with some issues (ADHD etc.) who is a master at provoking the other kids in the class.

The picture that eventually emerged was that the teachers didn't really know how to make that kid take responsibility for his actions, so instead they took it out on the other kids he was provoking, holding them responsible for his tantrums. When he started targeting my son, at least one of the teachers pegged my son as the "problem" that she would watch like a hawk, getting him into a lot more trouble than was warranted.

[tZer]

Originally Posted by hrodbert696

Hard to tell without more specific info on the situation. It could be your son, or it could be the teacher, or an unfortunate combination of circumstances...

Of course - and earlier this year we were kept in the know regarding his behavior in the classroom and were diligently engaged in helping to correct the inappropriate stuff.

There's no question in my mind that he can be disruptive - as any 7 year old can be. There's also no question in my mind that his disruptive behavior can be effectively redirected without a significant investment of time or energy - if one is willing to do so. I believe that within normal parameters, being willing to do so falls within the purview of his teacher's job description.

He came home with his first re-issued tally sheet Tuesday afternoon and by the looks of things, she was keenly focused on flagging him at every turn. They were on a field trip with included a bus ride. A busload of 7 and 8 year olds = energy and excitement.

He said she was staring at him a lot and she corrected him a few times during the trip, but otherwise just glared at him. Then at the end of the day he was presented with the most detailed most tallied tally sheet in history. Complete with circles and arrows, things he was playing with (like a piece of hay he found on the field trip and a piece of paper he was messing with during a class activity) taped to it and so on.

In the past we got a tally sheet with the 'categories' of behavior infraction ticked - 2, maybe 3 on a really bad day for him in categories like "not staying on task", "talking", "fidgeting"... When he came home with these in the past, he had to explain in clear detail to me what each tally was for - what he did to deserve it, what he needs to do to make sure he doesn't get them anymore, then his restrictions were put in place until he came home tally-free. She said herself that this worked and successfully corrected the behaviors that she found to be so disruptive.

This tally sheet looked like a score card of any and all possible things he did that annoyed her. Needless to say, it's gone into our folder and will be discussed in more detail when we meet. He has been cited at home and is currently back on the same program as before living with privileges restricted until he corrects his behavior and comes home tally free. He knows that we know he can correct the behaviors that used to earn him tallies - and that we expect him to behave and focus in class.

We'll see how today goes.

[Bocete]

Wow, it really looks like the teacher has a problem.

[tZer]

Yes - that's how it seems, but we do still have to meet and get everything on the table before that's determined.

My wife was talking about the most recent tally sheet infractions with a coworker (a pre-school teacher). My son's teacher cited my son for picking up and playing with a piece of hay on the bus and a piece of paper on the rug during one of their 'circle' activities. The first thing my wife's co-worker said was that it sounds very much like my boy is very tactile and maybe if she gave him something he could hold onto during such times it might provide him the tactile stimulation he needs and allow him to pay attention without seeking out something to play with...

Well, if only his teacher has such keen insight into energetic kids... Rest assured, that little suggestion will be offered as part of our initiative to support her in her efforts to maintain order.

[MakiSupaStar]

There's something to that tactile thing. I realized that I'm much more receptive when listening to a person if my hands are busy. This is why my notebooks are full of psychadelic doodle patterns.

Sounds like you're keeping a really good level head on this matter. I have to commend you on that. So often parents go on the defensive and become deaf to any kind of commentary on their child's behavior.

[6jase5]

My wife teaches k-1 special ed (emotionally disturbed) so I'm declarling myself a second-hand teacher based on the daily recount, documenting her bruises, hanging out with teachers all the time, etc.

One theme I hear is constant, your child "in class" is very likely not the same as your child "at home". The tally sheet seemed like a great start and I too wonder why that wasn't reinstated. My wife does a similar activity with behaviour charts which document the good and the bad.

You've been given great advise by everyone above. An Open Mind and a willingness to work with the teacher on a plan will make this work. Going in guns blazing won't benefit anybody.

[tZer]

Originally Posted by MakiSupaStar

There's something to that tactile thing. I realized that I'm much more receptive when listening to a person if my hands are busy. This is why my notebooks are full of psychadelic doodle patterns.

Sounds like you're keeping a really good level head on this matter. I have to commend you on that. So often parents go on the defensive and become deaf to any kind of commentary on their child's behavior.

Thanks for that. Whenever I know I'm in for a touchy session and I tend to play it out in my head as if I were the angriest dad on earth. Then I pretend I'm on the receiving end of that and think of how that would look. What I tend to learn is that no matter how 'right' you are, coming in guns a-blazin' is the fastest way to find out how many things you didn't know and how much better off you'd have been had you simply shut the **** up and listened in the first place.

I used to work for an organization (SLARC) that provided respite for parents of kids with developmental disabilities and behavioral issues, so I do have personal experience in working with challenging kids and their parents. I also learned way back then that I am not cut out for that sort of work and I have a healthy respect for our wonderful special ed teachers and people who choose to work with that population as a career. It takes a very special person with strong character and a good heart to be effective in that arena.

Same goes for people who work with typical kids - like grade school teachers, so I do tend to defer to those who teach, coach and otherwise mentor our kids - they get the benefit of the doubt. They are the ones in the trenches - I know they have to contend with a lot of frustrating stuff - I don't want to make it any more challenging than it already is.

That said, she's getting a certain amount of the benefit of the doubt with a healthy dose of skepticism based on what I am able to know so far. You know... If it walks, talks and acts like a duck, right? So far I've been hearing a lot of quacking...

I am prepared to be open-minded and hear her out, to contribute what I feel might be useful insights, recommendations and to also let her know if she doesn't find a way to see the good in my son that I know is there and start acting as if she knows how to nurture it, she'll have a very challenging dad to contend with on top of a challenging kid.

[tZer]

Originally Posted by 6jase5

My wife teaches k-1 special ed (emotionally disturbed) so I'm declarling myself a second-hand teacher based on the daily recount, documenting her bruises, hanging out with teachers all the time, etc.

One theme I hear is constant, your child "in class" is very likely not the same as your child "at home". The tally sheet seemed like a great start and I too wonder why that wasn't reinstated. My wife does a similar activity with behaviour charts which document the good and the bad.

You've been given great advise by everyone above. An Open Mind and a willingness to work with the teacher on a plan will make this work. Going in guns blazing won't benefit anybody.

Whoa... I wrote my reply to Maki before reading yours... It's very eerie how your post and mine seem to have an awareness of each other... Right down to the "guns a-blazing" expression!